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Post by hgk on Mar 15, 2009 19:43:32 GMT
I am searching for my grandfather's family. His name was John Gwynne and his military records show that he was born in Coedpoeth in about 1876. His marriage certificate states that his father's name was also John and that he was a mason by trade. I have been unable to trace the family on the census returns - any help would be appreciated, especially if there are still Gwynnes at Coedpoeth.
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Post by eluned on Mar 15, 2009 23:08:39 GMT
Hi hgk I can't find him on the census either and there doesn't appear to be a John Gwynne birth registered at Wrexham at that time either. I checked his service record as further information may help others people to search for him. John Gwynne marr Eva Elsie Morgan at Pontypridd, Glamorgan in 1908 and gives his address as Caerphilly. He was a Sergeant with the Cheshire reg. Cheers
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Post by eluned on Mar 16, 2009 10:27:48 GMT
Hello I am beginning to think he may have changed his name for some reason Is it possible that he could have been illegitimate and registered under a different name Another suggestion, perhaps a long shot do you think he could have been a Wynne rather than Gwynne There is a John Wynne that fits with some of your information but I have no idea how you would prove this Take a look at these census returns anyway and see what you think. 1881 Rock Cottages, PenygelliRG11/5515, F.106, PG.43 Elizabeth Moss 54 H wid b.Brymbo Winifryde " 15 school teacher b.Bersham John Wynne 6 nephew scholar b.BershamThe rest of the family are in Penygelli Road but John senior who is a widow, is a coal miner. RG11/5515 F.104 Pg.40 They are living next door to a Jones family occupation, mason. 1891 PenygelliRG12/4614, f.82, pg.11 John Wynne H 45 M coal miner b.Denbigh Mary " W M 39 B.Penygelli Robert " 18 John " 16Samuel J " 7 Stanley " 2 George Owen " 8mths and others
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Post by eluned on Mar 16, 2009 14:34:45 GMT
His service records say he was 38yrs 9mths when he enlisted 7 Sep 1914 and that he was born Coedpoeth and his religion was Wesleyan. So born Dec/Jan 1876 if this is correct. Do you have his birthday please hgk? Although you may not have his actually dob perhaps you or another family member may have his birthday
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Post by hgk on Apr 25, 2009 15:34:27 GMT
Thanks to everyone for your contributions and suggestions. You have given me new avenues for research. This man is a mystery to me and I hope that the 1911 census will give me a better idea. Off to do some research based upon your kind suggestions.
Helen.
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Post by hgk on May 9, 2009 9:20:10 GMT
I have recently come into a little more information about John Gwynne: his birthday was in August, and his father was an engineer and not a mason. I have also found a postcard which was sent to him from Llangollen Vicarage wishing him a happy new year, unfortunately it wasn't posted and doesn't bear a date. It depicts the photograph of a young lady in what appears to be Edwardian dress standing at the door of the vicarage. She doesn't sign her name either, just sends him best wishes "from Llangollen vicarage", but it seems to be a personal message from a friend. I have been unable to find the encumbents of the vicarage for the years after those named on the 1901 census, and await the 1911 census with great excitement for all the other information it might reveal about him.
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Post by eluned on May 17, 2009 16:27:31 GMT
Hi His birthday doesn't seem to fit with his service record which seems to have him born Dec/Jan I hope you don't mind me asking but I was wondering where you obtained further details on John and his father? Any further information including the souce, may prove useful in the search. With regard to his father's occupation, I wonder if a mason could be regarded as an engineer The term mason could be mean various occupations from someone working in a quarry to a builder.
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Post by hgk on May 21, 2009 18:25:44 GMT
I had the extra information from documents and letters which an aunt had at her house. Unfortunately I came by it due to her death and my sister clearing out the house. Neither she nor my father had much to say about my grandfather. They didn't remember meeting any relatives from his side of the family. My aunt once told me that he gave a younger age when he went to join up for WW1 as he was afraid that he would be too old to be taken. I still have a mound of paperwork to search through, but Llangollen seems to be a major part of his correspondence. Thanks for your help and advice. I have been searching since 1990, but am sure that I am now close to a result.
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Post by annedw on Nov 14, 2009 12:44:31 GMT
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D I think we have him. Thanks to a very kind lady, this looks like him in 1911. Born Manchester RG number: RG14 Piece:32236 Registration District: Pontypridd Sub District: Eglwysilan Address: 12 Parkyfelin St Caerphilly County: Glamorganshire 1911 census GWYNNE, John Head Married 3 years M 33 1878 Mason Manchester GWYNNE, Eva Elsie Wife Married F 26 1885 b Radnor Llandrindod GWYNNE, Nell Daughter F 2 1909 b Glamorgan Caerphilly GWYNNE, Edward Son M 1 1910 b Caerphilly GWYNNE, Harold Son M 0 (1 MONTH) 1911 b Caerphilly Still can`t find him , in previous years
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Post by helengwynnekinsey on Nov 14, 2009 21:08:43 GMT
Yes, these are my grandparents, aunt and uncles on the 1911 census. I was shocked to see that he had put Manchester down as his place of birth as his WWI records state that he was born in Coepoeth. My aunt Nell also said that he said that he had been born in Coedpoeth. The 1911 census also says that he was bilingual. I am coming to the conclusion that he must have been born under another name and was maybe adopted. I have contacted the Record offices to see if they have school admission records but they do not. I have another clue: an uncle of mine was named Cadwelyn which is a very unusual name. I have found someone called Cadwelyn Cadwallader in Coedpoeth who may have been a contemporary of his. We have also found card announcing the funeral of Francis Mitchell of Cobden place. Coedpoeth who died on June 11th 1902 aged 48 years. I have found that his wife was named Alice, nee Wynn.
Thanks to whoever did the 1911 census check, and sorry I caused confusion by starting a new thread on the other message board.
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Post by jojo on Nov 14, 2009 21:57:40 GMT
I have a Cadwelyn Cadwaladr Mar Q 1875 in my tree. He was the son of Aaron Cadwaladr & Mary Hughes. In 1901 Cadwelyn's occupation was Monumental Stonemason so perhaps that is the tie in?
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Post by abeer on Nov 14, 2009 22:05:43 GMT
Hi , Alice Wynne who married Francis Mitchell was my great aunt and strangely right at the beginning of this thread the same family were picked up as being a possibility for John Gwynne.
I also have no information on him whatsoever after the 1891 Wales census aged 16 - could he be the same person? He would have been Francis Mitchells brother in law if that is the case?
My John Wynne's father John Wynne was a miner and would have remarried when John (junior) was 9 (his mother died in 1878) perhaps he didn't get on with his new step mother and step brothers and sisters? Incidentally there are 2 births that could be him - a John Wynn Mar Qtr 1876 and another John Wynne Sep Qtr 1874 registered at Wrexham. The surname is spelt in many diffferent ways so it seems.
Very interesting stuff!!
Alison
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Post by annedw on Nov 15, 2009 13:34:49 GMT
1901 RG13; Piece: 5219; Folio: 80; Page: 16. 3 Cobden Close. Francis Mitchell 45 carter b Llanfynydd Alice wife 36 b Mostyn Florence dau 1 b Coedpoeth Jane 3 mths ****************************** Transferred from the other Thread asking for info on the Llangollen Vicarage, L K another Wynne. North Wales Chronicle September 30, 1899. mentions `Archdeacon Wynne Jones, now vicar of Llangollen.`
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Post by annedw on Nov 15, 2009 14:55:46 GMT
1901 RG13; Piece: 5249; Folio: 49; Page: 11. The Vicarage. Llangollen Llewelyn Wynne Jones 42 Clergyman b Oswesty Janet Alexander 31 b Scotland Dorothy Amy Jones 9 dau b London Charles Edward Jones Owen 43 brother in law b Dolgelley Mabel Jos Holmes 22 visitor goveness b Steyning Sussex Annie Jones 26 servant b Leeswood Mary Jane Roberts 24 housemaid b Llantisilio Montgomery Sarah Ann Davies 23 cook b Llangollen Catherine Mary Morris 23 ladys maid b Dolgelley Annie Williams 19 kitchen maid b Birkenhead Ellen Jossie Seabrook 22 ladys maid b Laverstock Green Herts
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Post by eluned on Nov 15, 2009 16:44:50 GMT
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Post by abeer on Nov 15, 2009 17:29:20 GMT
Hi all, My John Wynne was the 4th child of John Wynne senior - I have the birth certificates of his elder sisters Mary Ellen b 1864 in Penygelli and Alice born 1867 in Llanasa (Mostyn) to the same parents John Wynne and Esther Wynne (formerly Heys/Hayes) both were unable to write and made their mark. John senior states his occupation as a collier/coal miner. I have never been able to locate their marriage anywhere so far despite many many attempts and had concluded that they would have had to have been married outside the UK or perhaps not married at all. I know that Mary Ellen died in 1872 aged 6 (she was noted as a cripple on the 1871 census where John and Esther were found in Warrington with the 2 older girls) and Esther died in 1878 in Coedpoeth of PHYTHISIS (TB) - I have her death certificate and both were buried in Wern cemetery . I have found an Esther Hayes born in Broughton , Denbighshire in 1843 living with her grandfather Edward Pugh in the Miners Arms Minera who seems to fit the bill (in the absence of any other evidence at least). I am assuming that as Esther did not die until 1878 that John Wynne born 1875 and Robert Edward Wynne born 1871 were also her sons with John Wynne senior - by 1911 census all these children were deceased apart from Robert Edward and John ( neither of whom can be found) so John would have had only his father still alive plus his half siblings Samuel(1885), Stanley(1888), George(1891) and Mary Ellen(1894). I have sent Helen a PM to see if any of this ties in with what she knows - I have no other info as yet but any help would be greatly appreciated,
Alison
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Post by abeer on Nov 15, 2009 17:34:44 GMT
Here is a photo of Stanley Wynne born 1888 John (G)wynnes potential half brother - my greatgrandfather Alison Attachments:
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Post by eluned on Nov 15, 2009 17:46:31 GMT
Hi Alison, A lovely photo and the information is very interesting too. The fact that John and Esther were living in Warrington in 1871 could be why John Gwynne says he was born in Manchester I guess. So what is the link with the Moss family? I see John Wynne in "nephew" eluned
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Post by abeer on Nov 15, 2009 17:56:19 GMT
Hi, Haven't worked that one out yet either Perhaps Esther was married before and my info is incorrect? Alison
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Post by annedw on Nov 15, 2009 18:12:47 GMT
Winifred Moss, Teacher at Penygelli Schools. Winifred Moss was born in 1866. Her parents were George Moss a carpenter from Llanarmon and Elizabeth, nee Pugh, who was born in Brymbo. Sadly her father died on 7th March 1866 aged 53, shortly before Winifred was born
1881 Rock Cottages, Penygelli RG11/5515, F.106, PG.43 Elizabeth Moss 54 H wid b.Brymbo Winifryde " 15 school teacher b.Bersham John Wynne 6 nephew scholar b.Bersham
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Post by abeer on Nov 15, 2009 18:29:04 GMT
So Esther Hayes mother Esther Pugh was Elizabeth Moss sister and therefore her aunt - you can probably hear the penny dropping in my brain from your house. Perhaps John was sent to live with his Aunt after his mother died as the father couldn't cope although he had a Mary Jones living with him aged 71 (servant also born Llanarmon presumably to look after the smaller children ) so it seems more likely that it was a sleepover? Alison
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Post by eluned on Nov 15, 2009 22:24:08 GMT
I really need to go to bed I am confusing myself! St Giles Dec 1/4 1842 Esther Pugh marr Moses Griffiths/Edward Hayes
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Post by jojo on Nov 16, 2009 8:48:32 GMT
There is a birth of an Esther Hayes registered Liverpool Mar Q 1844 on free BMD
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Post by helengwynnekinsey on Nov 16, 2009 17:39:09 GMT
A BIG THANKS to EVERYONE who is contributing to this line of enquiry. I am going to read it all a few times over so that I get it clear in my head, and then I will be able to proceed. Helen.
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Post by annedw on Nov 18, 2009 13:20:39 GMT
With some help from the Great War forums I have found that John would have served with the Cheshire Regiment before he re-enlisted on 2 Sept 1914. I was wondering why he joined up at Chester rather than closer to home in Caerphilly. Also I thought it very odd that he would choose to join, especially as his wife had given just birth on 31 August 1914, she already had 3 children, one only 10 months old and the eldest 5. On his records it says that he had served before with the 1st Battalion Cheshire Regiment, it could be possibly in the Boer War of 1899 to 1902 before his marriage. He might still have been living in the local area then. It also may explain why he`s not in the 1901 census, but we can`t be sure of that.
“If he was a reserve it would suggest that he already had been a serving soldier. I see from his MIC that he was in France by the 25th Sept 14 so it is likely that 2nd Sept may have been the date he rejoined. The Number does not appear to be an early TF Cheshire No. and his Rank on the MIC of Sgt would suggest prior service. He would most probably have rejoined at that location because it may have been specified as the place of rejoining on his pre-war discharge. It is possible that in his pre-war service was with 1st Batt and he rejoined them and went to France immediately with the BEF, the TF units went over later as you may see on the long long trail. As a special reservist, he will have been mobilised and ordered to report to regimental headquarters at Chester. It will not have been a choice. “
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Post by helengwynnekinsey on Nov 18, 2009 13:33:44 GMT
Thanks for the extra work done on John Gwynne's regimental service record. We have a photograph of him in Cheshire Regiment uniform which was taken in Quetta, India. I have since found that the Cheshire Regiment were there at the start of the 20th century. He may also have spent some time in the Boer war campaign, but that remains to be discovered. I will have to visit Kew to search for his early army records (pre-WWI) as they are not yet available online. It's great to have the background information about having to report to regimental headquarters in Cheshire, so thanks for that.
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Post by annedw on Nov 18, 2009 13:43:55 GMT
It seems you have a lot of clues for John. What about Eva, have you found out about her yet. I have been doing some `digging` , she was a widow when she married John, but was she married before to Charles Price Morgan, was her maiden name Price and her father John Price. If so I think have found her, with an elder sister Mildred. More help about the service records. "After looking at service record: his attestation does say that he had previously served in the 1st Cheshires. It is not likely that there will be records of this prior service outside what you have found already. It might be worth checking the WO97 records at Kew, but I doubt he will be there. While there, you could look in WO100 to see if he was awarded any campaign medals for the Boer War. Have you any pictures showing medal ribbons? "
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Post by helengwynnekinsey on Nov 19, 2009 9:49:07 GMT
Thanks for looking for my grandmother Eva's records. I have a great deal of information about her and my ancestors on that side of the family which go back to the 1700s. I only wish that my grandfather's family would be more obliging. The Kew references are very helpful, thank you very much indeed. Helen.
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Post by annedw on Nov 19, 2009 15:14:42 GMT
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Post by annedw on Nov 19, 2009 15:24:36 GMT
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