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Post by pierce on Apr 23, 2012 18:58:21 GMT
Ago Reference miles master crash. If the pilot was Polish possible that he was flying out of RAF Newton. Number 16 (Polish) Services Flying Training School. Station was used by the flying school for 5 years to instruct basic and advance flying skills to Polish pilots serving in the R.A.F.
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Post by targettug on May 18, 2012 19:50:24 GMT
Ago,
I have checked my lists but can find no reference for the loss of a Martinet on 14.09.43, so it would appear that this may have been a Master. If anyone has any related Martinet info I would naturally be interested in hearing from you.
Kidn regards,
TT
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Post by pierce on May 27, 2012 11:53:19 GMT
Ago and TT. Have made a number of searches but cannot find any reference to an aircraft crashing in the area on or around that date. Also tried Commonwealth Graves Register ( A very long shot I know ) but did not find anything recorded against Polish aircrew for that date. Will try RAF crash recovery units, if I remember correctly the one for this area operated out RAF Hawarden, although records are very sparse.
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Post by ago on Jun 1, 2012 19:05:57 GMT
hello pierce and all,yes a bit of a mystery this one,going to have to get in touch with the occupants of cae glas for more info,i know that someone did an excavation there using metal detectors remember when i was looking for a crash near pondorosa cafe,and info of crashed spitfire with pilot being polish,it turned out he was Canadian,did not find that one,his name was cloutier,joseph fernand oscar,crashed near pentre bwlch farm on 15,9,1944,thats another search in the future,got 4 days off work (yippee do da)see what i can do,
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Post by pierce on Jun 3, 2012 21:50:00 GMT
Ago If the Spitfire crashed near Pentre Bwlch Farm his flight path must have been up the valley, he would have then found the exit blocked by the top of the valley below the Pondorosa. So his options would have 1. Full power climb straight out. 2 A power climb to the right or 3 a Power climb to the left. I think options 2 and 3 are not viable would not have had the distance to do either result would have been to hit the side of the valley, only option to give him the best channce to avoid crashing was option 1. On my thinking he struck the ground at the end of the valley below the Pondorosa. However I would have expect the members of the anti aircraft unit station above the Pondorosa to have seen the crash. The remains of the platforms can bee still seen above the Pondorosa on the side of the track up to the masts
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Post by ago on Jun 22, 2012 19:53:50 GMT
hello pierce.now there's a thought,i remember somewhere in my notes that he may have used his parachute,for on cyrn-y-brain above pentre bwlch and pentre isaf is a wreath that's been grown over with moss,with a poppy cross he may have fallen here with spitfire crashing further down?.here are a few parts i found in the undergrowth of Bristol beau fighter. Attachments:
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Post by ago on Jun 22, 2012 19:55:23 GMT
and the other end, Attachments:
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Post by ago on Jun 22, 2012 20:01:15 GMT
3 small parts,not a bad find considering that every time i take parts home to clean,then replace them they then disappear. Attachments:
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Post by ago on Jun 22, 2012 21:57:22 GMT
here is a memorial, i took this photo about 3 years ago,always been a new poppy.
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Post by ago on Jun 22, 2012 21:59:34 GMT
sorry, Attachments:
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Post by annedw on Jun 23, 2012 7:20:55 GMT
That would be a mystery I`d have to solve, who puts the poppy there ? Perhaps you should leave a message on the post before Remembrance day this year. This is a really good project you are both working on.
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Post by ago on Jul 27, 2012 17:20:23 GMT
will keep that in mind thanks annedw,going back to pierce research on beaton and kempling crash wrexham,found a coroners report saying 1941(2327)22 JULY BURTON, BEATON IAN RONALD AIRD,and KEMPLING, RUSSELL JOSEPH MULTIPLE INJURIES COLLIDED WITH ANOTHER AIRCRAFT AND CRASHED TO THE GROUND,although cwgc says the 20/7/41,so it looks like burton near rossett,both being Canadian
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Post by pierce on Aug 6, 2012 20:18:23 GMT
Ago, I would say that your information is correct and these are the two mentioned in my research. Rossett/Burton geographically next to each other. Easy to distinguish boundaries on the ground but if the two collided over i.e. Rossett could well have been Burton. The date difference is not great. Accident recorded on the 20th and the inquest a couple of days later, it all fits.
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Post by annedw on Aug 7, 2012 7:01:27 GMT
Hi Both. I came across these , both buried in the same grave at Wrexham cemetery .
KLEIN . JOSEF VON EATON PARK PULFORD 06/11/1941 09600 UNKNOWN UNKNOWN (GERMAN AIRMAN) EATON PARK PULFORD 06/11/1941 09600
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Post by pierce on Aug 7, 2012 20:17:08 GMT
Annedw. Interesting, as I have found reference to a German Junkers JU88A-5, WNR 7204, 4D+1A from Headquarters Staffel KG30 which crashed Pulford on the 1st November, 1941. Could these two have been part of the crew ?
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Post by pierce on Aug 7, 2012 20:26:23 GMT
Ago : Reference : Miles Master crash. Have found record of a Miles Master Mk 2 AZ698, pilot F/Sgt R. Kershaw and pupil Sgt H.W. Scott, RCAF which collided in mid air with Wellington X3807 from 23 OTU on 16.9.43 over Wrexham Industrial Estate.
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Post by annedw on Aug 9, 2012 16:40:17 GMT
Annedw. Interesting, as I have found reference to a German Junkers JU88A-5, WNR 7204, 4D+1A from Headquarters Staffel KG30 which crashed Pulford on the 1st November, 1941. Could these two have been part of the crew ? www.airfieldinformationexchange.org/community/archive/index.php/t-3818.htmlJunkers JU 88A-5 WNr 7204 ,4D+IA HQ Staffel of KG30 crashed 01/11/41 Mission to attack Liverpool ,but was hit by A/A fire set on fire and crashed at Brockside farm near Pulford close to the Welsh border,crew off 4 were all killedI would guess they are two, but if 4 were killed where are the others buried
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Post by targettug on Aug 9, 2012 20:15:49 GMT
Ago : Reference : Miles Master crash. Have found record of a Miles Master Mk 2 AZ698, pilot F/Sgt R. Kershaw and pupil Sgt H.W. Scott, RCAF which collided in mid air with Wellington X3807 from 23 OTU on 16.9.43 over Wrexham Industrial Estate
The 1180 states aircraft crashed and burnt out 2 miles East of Wrexham. Miles Master AZ698 was operating with No.17 (P) A.F.U. with Wellington X3807, at the time of accident, operating with No.83 O.T.U.
Interesting to note that the Wellington crew did not appreciate there had been a collision.
Kind regards
TT
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Post by pierce on Aug 9, 2012 21:38:17 GMT
Annedw. Thanks for the web site. Lost my notes with regard to where I found the information. With regard to the missing crew members. Possibility that they bailed out successfully and became P.O.Ws., or bailed out unsuccessfully some distance from where the aircraft crashed and are buried outside the immediate area.
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Post by pierce on Aug 9, 2012 21:42:21 GMT
TT. That clearly rules out that particular Miles Master as being our unaccounted one.
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Post by pierce on Aug 9, 2012 21:47:10 GMT
Annedw. Disregard my message. Just noticed in your message, "All 4 crew members were killed". Great this research you answer one question which opens up another. Back to the research
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Post by Hen Locsin on Aug 12, 2012 16:19:49 GMT
Hi Pierce and Ago, Does anyone from the area recall a German aircraft being temporarily located on the forecourt of the filling sation at Five Crosses Coedpoeth? Maybe Tomminera! I can recall being marched from Minera School in "crocodile" fashion to see it. As I was only about six years of age at the time my knowledge of the details is a bit sketchy. Hen Locsin
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Post by Hen Locsin on Aug 17, 2012 11:41:54 GMT
Shame about the lack of memory! How about the Barrage balloon that came down in the field behind/side of the smithy at five Crosses? Don't think that Cliff's books were necessarily that concerned with this type of revelation, so as to be a reference source? Hen Locsin
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Post by pierce on Oct 7, 2012 22:06:45 GMT
Ago / Targettug Have found reference in "The Wrexham Industrial Estate Northern Access Road Environmental Statement to the following : Miles Master Mk.3 W8640 crashed 28.3.1942 Tyn-Twll Farm map reference SJ3582051678 ( Note this is the map reference for the general area of the wreakage as the aircraft broke in two). Both crew members were killed. Pilot was F/Sgt Ronald Lewis York, RAFVR., aged 22, 758009 buried Abington (SS.Peter and Paul) Church yard. At present cannot find reference to second crew member or unit/squadron. Also reference to wreakage of a Curtis Tomahawk at map reference 3796350997 Spring Grove. No dates other than wreakage was recovered in 1941. Do either of you have any other information on these two aircraft
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Post by targettug on Oct 9, 2012 20:25:06 GMT
Pierce,
Master W8640 was allotted to No.57 O.T.U. at the time of the accident. Passenger was Sergeant HOPKINS Basil Ewart (624263) also killed, accident due to airframe failure during aerobatics. Have the 1180 if that helps.
Regards,
TT
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Post by pierce on Oct 12, 2012 20:47:02 GMT
Thanks Targettug, Clearly that is why the wreakage was over a large area. Do we know which part of the air frame failed ? Now to try and trace the Tomahawk. I think I will start with the OTUs. Cannot be many with that type of aircraft on strength. Regards Pierce
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Post by targettug on Oct 22, 2012 19:52:29 GMT
Pierce,
The 1180 indicates that the mainplanes broke up in dive, further investigation indicates metal failure in mainplane. One assumes this being one of the jointing / bracket castings in the wooden structure?
Regards,
TT
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Post by pierce on Oct 23, 2012 18:38:59 GMT
TT. Thanks for that. Regards Pierce
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Post by ago on Nov 13, 2012 21:11:31 GMT
hello all, working away again, on this site 96 SQUADRON AT CRANAGE 1940-1941,a few interesting snippets covering Wrexham mostly DEFIANTS one of t3999 p o phoenix and sgt searl this looks like a crash on runway 1 of 3,also just found another crash at g/r sj34731 53993 or lat 53.079158 -2.9757771,at fork in road old Wrexham road and pikey lane, up the road from the flash, this is an area, although there does look to be a shadow on upper end of field, i found the site TT sent very interesting and good find,
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Post by targettug on Nov 13, 2012 21:21:01 GMT
Hello Ago,
If you have located the site of the Master I would be very interested in any details.
Regards,
TT
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