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Post by frankm on Dec 16, 2011 12:54:51 GMT
I do think that this is the same Margaret mentioned in posting #73.
I don't know if you read in the bond that Elizabeth was her sister. I find it very difficult reading some of the handwritten documents. With her being a spinster it seemed to rule out her being a daughter unless Margaret had been married before Robert Michaell . BUT when I try to read Robert Michaell 's will there is mention there of 'my daughter Elizabeth ?.?.? by my ?.?.? wife Margaret Michaell '
This perhaps is where the complications came in and the mention of Margaret Michael other wise Wilcox was because the complications were more to do with the Robert Michaell connection?
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Post by annedw on Dec 16, 2011 14:41:34 GMT
Robert will was dated 1711, Margarets bonds were 40 years later . Would this still be the same Elizabeth. Now I found this. Michael, Elizabeth, Wrexham Abbot, Wrexham, Denbigh, Spinster Elizabeth Michael : will, 1722. hdl.handle.net/10107/599980Part of it reads Elizabeth Michael of Wrexham Abbott .. certain dwelling house … situate and lying and being in Wrexham Abbot aforesaid commonly known and called by ye name of ye Sign of the Hop and Goose the same I devise and give to my loving mother Margaret Wilco-cks for and during her natural life in case my said mother should happen to dye in .. lifetime of my loving father in law Robert Wilthingys without isue of his body then my will is and I do hereby give devise and bequeath the same ? to my .. Robert Wilco-ck for .. during the term of his natural life On image 4 , 5th line down it reads Elizabeth Wilco-ck ? but is signed Michael. Wittnessed by Owen Dod, Wm Hampton, Howell Vaughan, 11 July 1722. So where was the Hop and Goose.
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Post by frankm on Dec 17, 2011 1:58:54 GMT
« Reply #91 Yesterday at 2:41pm »
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Post by frankm on Dec 17, 2011 7:42:32 GMT
To answer my own question - Would he not have been her step father?
At least one online dictionary says for father in law "Archaic - A stepfather."
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Post by annedw on Dec 17, 2011 20:03:34 GMT
I agree about the stepfather term, it`s the same as brother in law / step brother. I would say it is the same Robert Wilco-ck the victualler who died in 1751, and if he was married to Margaret in July 1722 , then I guess he was about 55/60. It looks like she was a widow formerly married to a Michael. Hop Pole - York St and Fox and Goose - Abbot St; both mentioned in Wrexham Breweries and Inns. I have been informed Yorke Street is in Wrexham Regis. Abbot St is in Abbot Reply 46 4 Jul 1751 bur/o Robert (victr), Wrexham Abbot Reply 65 Jacob Littlemore clockmaker Bersham Gent. Bond 1745 Robert Willco-ck / Willcox a victualler of Wrexham is a witness ADDITION . looking at Elizabeth Michael`s will again I think it is Fox and Goose. Ffox, what I thought was a p doesn`t compare with the word " happen" four lines below.
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Post by frankm on Dec 18, 2011 20:10:52 GMT
Re Elizabeth Michael`s will
Now you point it out, yes that seems right. The line below the 'happen' has "Ffather in Law" then just "Father in Law" a couple of lines below that.
If I can tie this in to the Family tree, it could be a rather merry tour of Wrexham if I ever get over there.
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Post by annedw on Dec 19, 2011 17:15:16 GMT
The Fox and Goose later became known as the Welsh Harp, oddly enough I helped another person with their family who ran the WH from about 1851 to 1909. Coincidence
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Post by frankm on Dec 20, 2011 10:34:09 GMT
Re posts 60 and 63 regarding a bond, 1669
They refer to Roger ap Jenkin ap Willc-cke late of lleweny
It may not mean anything but I found a book called
AN ACCOUNT OF THE ANCIENT TOWN OF FRODSHAM, IN CHESHIRE.
by WILLIAM BEAMONT.
"On the nth January, 8 Jac. I. (1611), Robert Venables, esquire, a very extensive landowner, conveyed the estates he had in very many townships, Helsby and Frodsham being amongst them, to Roger Wilcox and George Simc-cke, gentlemen, and their heirs in order to a family settlement."
This is probably coincidence but perhaps Venables had land in Denbighshire too. Its certainly around the right time.
(Lleweny is mentioned in regard to Thomas Salisbury which is why this came up in my search)
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Post by annedw on Dec 20, 2011 16:11:42 GMT
I am a Wilcoxon , and my own line is from the Wilcoxon`s of Frodsham. There is a Thomas Simco-cke who married Elizabeth Wilcoxen on 12 April 1574 at St Laurance, Frodsham, the rest of that line of the Wilcoxons stuck with that spelling right down to the present day. There are many more Wilcoc-ksons in Staffordshire and Derbyshire and of course they could be linked The site I use for the Wills has many variations on Wilco-ck and they are mainly in South Wales and Hawarden. Just enter the name , and don`t bother with any other search box. cat.llgc.org.uk/cgi-bin/gw/chameleon?skin=profeb&lng=en
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Post by annedw on Dec 20, 2011 16:40:55 GMT
Re your Reply #94
See Reply #72 Marriage 1716 May 26 Robert Willco-ck (Limner) stranger and Margaret Michaell Margaret married about 5 years after her first husband died ( will 1711)
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Post by frankm on Dec 22, 2011 9:50:32 GMT
Re #72 "A limner was an illuminator of manuscripts, or more generally, a painter of ornamental decoration."
This from 'The History of St Giles'
"At the beginning of the 18th century the Parish Church received a number of gifts from Elihu Yale of Plas Grono, the benefactor of Yale University. Amongst these was a gallery erected to replace the rood-loft at the eastern end of the nave in 1707. This was moved in 1718 to the west end of the nave."
Could be that "Robert Willco-ck (Limner) stranger" was involved in the work on St Giles and stayed in the area
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Post by annedw on Jan 11, 2012 22:25:14 GMT
I`ve still been digging around with this one, but can`t really find anything of use. If Robert Willco-ck (Limner) was indeed an illuminator of transcripts or a painter then he must have been taught somewhere probably as an apprentice, but as he was a `stranger` he could have been from anywhere. There were many more Wilco-cks an the Hawarden area from very early on. I suppose if you have the time, you could look for wills of connected names, and hope that a Willco-ck might appear in some of them.
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Post by frankm on Jan 12, 2012 12:16:13 GMT
As you say he could have come from anywhere but I will keep trying Did a search for John Wilc-ck Shrewsbury and got some results from the National Archives. They were to do with property Lease and Release. 867/86&87 30 April and 1 May 1678Contents: (1) Robert Forster of Shrewsbury, draper. (2) John Wilcoks of Shrewsbury, tailor. Consideration: £50. Forster conveys the messuage heretofore in the tenure of Symon Weston with the garden, orchard and backside, the premises now are or were in the tenure of Thomas Collins, glover in the High Street of Abbey Foregate in length from the highway....... Lease and Release. 867/88&89 9 and 10 June 1685Contents: (1) John Wilc-cks of Shrewsbury, tailor and Anne his wife, Thomas Griffithes of Abbey Forgate, Shrewsbury, glover,....... The name Thomas Collins, glover, appears also but whether this is the same Thomas Collins, glover, will 1740 reply 79 seems unlikely None of this seems useful at the moment but who knows tomorrow all may become clear
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Post by lb on Jan 10, 2013 20:24:04 GMT
This is an oldish thread but you might be interested to see an appearance of "Jo[hn] Willcoack" in the rate accounts for Bersham township in the 1680s (see attachment). The same John as the wheelwright mentioned in the parish registers, perhaps. An early appearance of "pen gelli" (Penygelli) a few lines down too. Attachments:
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Post by frankm on Jan 11, 2013 0:37:29 GMT
Thanks lb, where did you find this? It may be somewhere I have n't looked or perhaps not put in the right search terms.
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Post by lb on Jan 11, 2013 10:48:30 GMT
Hi, these are the Wrexham parish account books, held in the Denbighshire Archives. They cover the 1660s onwards, with a large gap around 1700. They're not indexed so its just a matter of going through them township by township and picking out names! Occasionally they allow you to confirm family relationships as one name will succeed another. I'm afraid I wasn't looking at Bersham closely so all I can tell you is that Willcoack paid 4s. in that year in rates with another 4s. still to pay
Ruthin do have a 'names' index on their website which should tell you if there are any deeds or wills of interest to you....
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Post by lb on Jan 11, 2013 10:52:48 GMT
One interesting exercise would be to see if he is preceded in the rate books by a Roger - the Roger Wilc-ck of Bersham buried in the 1670s might then be connected to him.
I'm going to go right out on a limb and suggest that a rate of 8s. shows he was farming a reasonable piece of land, maybe 40 acres or so. No smallholder that's for sure.
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Post by frankm on Jan 11, 2013 11:41:52 GMT
Thanks again lb. I have a Roger Willc-ck buried 16 March 1689 says 'of W' so there could be a connection there also
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Post by annedw on Jan 11, 2013 11:46:44 GMT
Interesting follow up .
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Post by frankm on May 21, 2013 13:12:57 GMT
It seems John who left the will liked the young girls, I am almost certain I`m right with this, but only the marriage certificate from 1844 will prove it by giving ages and fathers names. Anyway- here goes. ;D ;D In his will John states his wife is Elizabeth and this could be a marriage. 1844 Bangor Civil John Willco-ck / Elizabeth Morris. Wrexham Advertiser Dec 1st 1851 On the 18th ult at Penybryn Chapel the Rev Aaron Francis to Mrs Willco-ck , relict of the late Mr Willco-ck. In 1851 Aaron Francis aged 35 is living on Stryt Draw ( Chapel St) he is a widower and the Minister of Penybryn Chapel. Seems to have been born possibly Llanrhaidr Children Allen F 9 , Maurice H 7, Ann E 6, his first wife in 1841 was Mary. By 1861 he is living in Rhyl with his second wife Elizabeth who is 40 and born Wrexham. They have two more children. 1871 she is 49, 1881 is 59 so all this seems to add up that she was born about 1821/22 and was only about 22 when she married John, he was at least 80. A little more information which may interest someone following the Francis/Morris family. Elizabeth's father was Samuel Morris Two sons with Aaron Francis Ernest R Francis (b.1852-Wrexham) Eustace C Francis (b.1855-Rhyl Flintshire d. 6-8-1926) Elizabeth died 8 Jun 1895 and the part that really caught my eye Adelaide South Australia. Eustace buried in the same plot.
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Post by frankm on Jul 9, 2014 23:02:14 GMT
This may be of interest to others following the Willc-ock name. I have managed to get photographs of a couple of Headstones, plots 177 & 178 St. Marcella Graveyard, Marchwiel, Denbighshire Thomas (1764 - 1850) , Elizabeth (1771 - 1814) , their daughter Mary (1791 - 1864) and son John (1794 - 1875) Sorry the link won't work, I forgot about the problem with the name on that, link should be willc-ock.pcug.org.au/tree/headstone/ without - Can't insert image for same reason so I will try to attach Think its worked Is it possible to exclude willc-ock (Willc-ock) in the censorship script? Rob
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Post by annedw on Jul 11, 2014 18:01:23 GMT
tinyurl.com/oe6um8aI used a link shrink. Tiny url. and got rid of the "offending" name , it still takes you too the same site
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Post by frankm on Jul 12, 2014 2:03:05 GMT
Thanks for the suggestion. Some people don't like to click on those as you can't see where you are going. Even though mine is wrong, when you "hover" over it you can see where it is going to take you.
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Post by annedw on Jul 12, 2014 12:28:28 GMT
that flat stone is well preserved , I wonder if was upright at some time ? Did you uncover it ? cat.llgc.org.uk/cgi-bin/gw/chameleon. Search archives and manuscripts for Willc-ock Title Wrexham. Thomas Vaughan to [--] Edward, 1685, April 5. Summary Promise to send the answers of Mr. Morgans and Roger Willc-ock Not much help as I can`t find a will of Thomas Vaughan that may have a useful name in it .
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Post by frankm on Jul 12, 2014 13:16:28 GMT
that flat stone is well preserved , I wonder if was upright at some time ? Did you uncover it ?It was uncovered by the person who took the photos for me and no doubt that's the reason for its good condition. They seemed to think it may have been upright originally. Although the other stone is very weathered I think I have worked out the epitaph This is an aged pilgrim's rest, Who with his Saviour now is blest, Christ's service did his time employ, Till called to enter his Redeemers joy. Title Wrexham. Thomas Vaughan to [--] Edward, 1685, April 5.
Summary Promise to send the answers of Mr. Morgans and Roger Willc-ock
Not much help as I can`t find a will of Thomas Vaughan that may have a useful name in it .I have found this recently and it could well be the Roger mentioned in other posts, he died in 1689. I did find mention somewhere else of Roger and someone called Vaughan to do with Chirk Castle. Unfortunately I did not record the link or the information and have not been able to find it again. Thanks, Rob
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Post by frankm on Feb 23, 2020 12:00:51 GMT
Wrexham Cemetery William Willthingy 65yrs Plas Noble, Marchwell, bur 24/07/1878 plot 02034 Elizabeth Willthingy 73yrs Gatewen, Broughton, bur 23/09/1885 plot 02034 William's obituary gives a major clue to the family origins
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Post by frankm on Jul 10, 2020 1:47:02 GMT
Previous post re family origins seems to have turned out to be misleading. William may well have thought his family came from London but this does not appear to be the case. William's grandfather, John Willc-ock B 1738 Wrexham D 1816 Lenham Kent did end his days living in Kent and John's daughter Mary B 1769 Marchweil D 1857 St.Marylebone, Middlesex also lived in Middlesex. John's obituary says "of Wrexham" and in his will he mentions his estate "Rhossuossur" in Wrexham, Denbighshire. Not sure of spelling. Where this may have been is unknown.
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Post by sirryan on Aug 20, 2023 16:13:22 GMT
I'm related to the Sontleys of Marchwiel, Denbighshire. Also the Pulestans. I have done some research and found out they're related to Tudor Trefor and the kings of Gwynedd. My 9 x great grandfather Robert Sontley – Born Abt. 1610 – Marchwiel, Denbighshire, Wales. Died Abt. 1654 – Shropshire, England. Married – Ursula Corbet on 18 Nov 1641, In Longnor, Shropshire, England. They also married into the Powneys of Berkshire. It's quite the fascinating history. I am enjoying reading the topics and I have registered and hope to talk about these topics more.
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