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Post by brian on Sept 4, 2014 18:39:01 GMT
> Coedpoeth was perhaps a bit more than a Londoner could handle and Wrexham was considered close enough. Maybe I'm clutching at straws here but it is > the only piece of evidence to suggest a place of birth that I have. Sounds fair enough but now I know that there is nothing concrete re Coedpoeth (although highly likely) if something else turns up. > The John/Hannah/Meshach family would explain a couple of things: > If the John Roberts who was a witness was her father, why was he there on his own? Hannah died in early 1888. > Meshach died in 1900 and John about the same time explains why there is no mention of Mary's family later in the family stories. Can't be sure John was there alone? Any idea who Eliz Evans the other witness was? > There is another Mary Elizabeth with a father John who was born in Rhostyllen. Think I found this too, John was a Smith if its the same one. Found 1871 and 1881 have n't found 1891 yet. The birth date was a better match for later records. Do you know if Mary E was known as Mary Or Elizabeth? I notice in one census it was Elizabeth Mary and the Rhostyllen Mary was Elizabeth in one of the records. I see Joseph Wilcoxon's Gt Granddaughter has come up with some very interesting info Mary's birth date is easily explained away, once she added the years that became her age. William may never have known otherwise. Had she said she was underage there would have been paperwork involved. Easier to say nothing. John was n't going to worry he was a witness anyway so obviously had no objection. Just wish it was as easy to prove it! True we don't know if John was alone at the wedding. I was also assuming that the John Roberts witness was her father which might not be the case. Looking through other marriage certs it appears that the parents are not usually witnesses. Don't know if she used Mary or Elizabeth. The headstone on the grave says Mary Elizabeth. The 1911 census is the odd one. I forgot to add in my post of yesterday does anyone know if the term Contractor was actually used in the welsh mining industry. I found a site that talks about Welsh Miner's Tobacco Tins as collectors items. It said that sometimes they were made with the occupation on the tin. One of the examples given was Contractor. If this was a job title that was used it would give another link.
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Post by brian on Sept 4, 2014 18:53:39 GMT
The Wrexham Advertiser, Saturday, June 16, 1900; Thanks for the newspaper article. It's quite a story. The fact that his father in law was the person who identified the body suggests that his father was already dead. I've been looking for his death but there were many John Roberts whose deaths were registered in Wrexham around this time. He would have been about 70 if he were still alive which would have been unusual, apparently lead miners rarely lived past 50, but we know that he was still alive in 1891 at age 61.
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Post by frankm on Sept 5, 2014 0:28:54 GMT
> True we don't know if John was alone at the wedding. I was also assuming that the John Roberts witness was her father which might not be the case. > Looking through other marriage certs it appears that the parents are not usually witnesses. Unfortunately that's very true but it did/does happen. A more likely person would have been her brother which throws everything out
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Post by annedw on Sept 5, 2014 7:15:28 GMT
Interesting discussion you have going, can I join in? This is brian Census 1891, 1901 and 1911 all give her age as being consistent with a birth between April 1867 and April 1868, So does the death registration and the age on the headstone, i.e. 68 yrs in 1936,
Meshach's age stays consistent with a birth year of April 1861 to April 1862 in all the info I can find, Census 1871, 1881, 1891, and his death in 1900 (He died in Plas Power Colliery although I can find no record of an accident there at the time)[/b]. It looks like there was a family story about Meshach, how else would Brian know where he died. . Pity he had a Civil marriage . Would be great if Mary Elizabeth Lovell was a witness
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Post by brian on Sept 5, 2014 16:11:19 GMT
Interesting discussion you have going, can I join in? This is brian Census 1891, 1901 and 1911 all give her age as being consistent with a birth between April 1867 and April 1868, So does the death registration and the age on the headstone, i.e. 68 yrs in 1936,
Meshach's age stays consistent with a birth year of April 1861 to April 1862 in all the info I can find, Census 1871, 1881, 1891, and his death in 1900 (He died in Plas Power Colliery although I can find no record of an accident there at the time)[/b]. It looks like there was a family story about Meshach, how else would Brian know where he died. . Pity he had a Civil marriage . Would be great if Mary Elizabeth Lovell was a witness No, it wasn't a family story. I found a probate record which indicated he died at Plas Power. Your point about mary Elizabeth being a witness is a good one, maybe she was at the funeral. Is there an obituary notice in the local paper or a record of the funeral anywhere with a list of mourners. Of course it still would not prove that it is the Mary E I am looking for, but if William was also there it would be.
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Post by brian on Sept 5, 2014 16:13:44 GMT
Sorry in the last post I was thinking Mary E would still be a Roberts, which of course she wouldn't. I guess I should think a bit more before responding to these good ideas.
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Post by annedw on Sept 5, 2014 17:04:14 GMT
I looked in the same paper and in the next issue for an obit and there was nothing at all. Only the report of the incident in various papers and the inquest in the Wrexham Advertiser. .
There`s a chance that there is a copy of the inquest at Denbighshire Archives. They do have an index , so as you have a date then will be able to tell you right away. I don`t know if it will help.
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Post by brian on Sept 7, 2014 14:29:45 GMT
I looked in the same paper and in the next issue for an obit and there was nothing at all. Only the report of the incident in various papers and the inquest in the Wrexham Advertiser. . That's a shame. It would have been good to find an obit and fantastic if Mary Lovell had been there. Thank's for looking.
There`s a chance that there is a copy of the inquest at Denbighshire Archives. They do have an index , so as you have a date then will be able to tell you right away. I don`t know if it will help. I checked the archive index and there is nothing there on the incident.
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Post by annedw on Sept 7, 2014 17:23:52 GMT
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Post by annedw on Sept 10, 2014 15:04:18 GMT
Unfortunately the Coroners Inquests held at Ruthin don`t start till 1907. I have a feeling Brian is not in the UK, so made a call to them.
So what does that leave. There`s a possibility Mary Lovell or her husband were a witness at Meshach's marriage, or a chance they are mentioned in his will.
Such a shame , just needing that one link. I suppose the marriage will say if John was deceased by then, and if still alive will give his occupation.
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Post by brian on Sept 10, 2014 21:07:21 GMT
Unfortunately the Coroners Inquests held at Ruthin don`t start till 1907. I have a feeling Brian is not in the UK, so made a call to them. So what does that leave. There`s a possibility Mary Lovell or her husband were a witness at Meshach's marriage, or a chance they are mentioned in his will. Such a shame , just needing that one link. I suppose the marriage will say if John was deceased by then, and if still alive will give his occupation. You're right Anne, I am not in the UK. I'm in Canada. Thanks for making the call. I have been wondering the same thing about Mary Lovell possibly being at the wedding of her brother. I can only find the civil registration which was Q3, 1893. I haven't been able to find any other marriage info yet. Again there is the possibility of a non-conformist marriage and no record. Is there any chance you could check the Wrexham Advertizer for a marriage report in this time slot. That is if you haven't done so already, you always seem to be one step ahead of me.
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Post by annedw on Sept 11, 2014 6:28:46 GMT
1893 Wrexham, Civil Marriage Wrexham County Borough (Wrexham) WM/040/39 ROBERTS Meshach EVANS Mary Jane WM/040/39 Pity it`s a Civil marriage , we could have checked a parish register for a fathers name. It would have been interesting to see if it was also John Roberts. View There is no announcement in the papers. NW BMD is useful as it gives the marriage place. This was a civil marriage, so either in a Chapel or Register office. You would have to buy the certificate. They were probably Non Conformist. www.northwalesbmd.org.uk/index.php
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Post by frankm on Sept 11, 2014 6:52:09 GMT
> There is no announcement in the papers. > NW BMD is useful as it gives the marriage place. This was a civil marriage, so either in a Chapel or Register office. > You would have to buy the certificate. They were probably Non Conformist. > www.northwalesbmd.org.uk/index.phpShould you decided to buy a certificate it may be easier to do it online here :- www.gro.gov.uk/GRO/content/certificates/default.aspOtherwise it seems you can only do it by post for the area of interest.
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Post by annedw on Sept 11, 2014 14:14:53 GMT
Meshachs son Thomas John Roberts joined the 17th Wales batt, RWF on 15th May 1915. His address was 3 Heol Offa, Adwy and he was 20 years and 10 months old, he was a miner. Next of kin - Mary Jane Roberts, same address. It seems from his records that he was wounded on 13 May 1916 and died of his wounds on the 19th. Thomas John Roberts Age at Enlistment: 20 Document Year:1915 Regimental Number: 26077 Regiment Name: RW Fusiliers Welsh Army . I can`t find him in War Graves Commision, , but he is on the Coedpoeth War memorial. There seems to be no family information given. www.clwydfhs.org.uk/cofebion/coedpoeth_wm.htm
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Post by jojo on Oct 1, 2014 8:31:24 GMT
An interesting puzzle.
I'm wondering Brian, if you have checked for a baptism in Leeswood (Mold) and or Llanarmon Yn Ial for a Mary Elizabeth Roberts in 1866-1868. Was a baptism found for Meshach? (Couples often returned to their home parishes for christenings/baptisms) It just seems odd that Hannah and John only had two children eight years apart, the first being in their early thirties and then a second after another eight years. I can't help but think there is more to this than meets the eye. Where was Hannah buried in 1888? Sorry I no longer subscribe to genie sites but some more poking around might stir some other directions?
Heather
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Post by hotwood on Nov 12, 2014 13:40:57 GMT
I'm interested in the Roberts family Coed poeth as both my parents were Roberts before marriage my father son of Herbert Roberts born in 1898 mother Gertrude Williams approx 1900 my mother daughter of Emlyn Roberts 1912 (?) and phoebe Pugh (1900) I did do a great deal of research, moved abroad and computers etc dismantled and I have list all info. Are these names in your family tree
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Post by hotwood on Nov 13, 2014 16:22:12 GMT
Brian I used to research Roberts families in Coedpoeth as my mother a Roberts married into another Roberts family. I moved after doing the research and lost all so I start again.
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Post by brian on Nov 19, 2014 1:26:18 GMT
An interesting puzzle. I'm wondering Brian, if you have checked for a baptism in Leeswood (Mold) and or Llanarmon Yn Ial for a Mary Elizabeth Roberts in 1866-1868. Was a baptism found for Meshach? (Couples often returned to their home parishes for christenings/baptisms) It just seems odd that Hannah and John only had two children eight years apart, the first being in their early thirties and then a second after another eight years. I can't help but think there is more to this than meets the eye. Where was Hannah buried in 1888? Sorry I no longer subscribe to genie sites but some more poking around might stir some other directions? Heather Thanks for the suggestion. I hadn't checked for baptism in Llanarmon parish records for Mary Elizabeth but I have now and cannot find anything that would fit the facts that I have. I had checked Leeswood because of the reference to it in the 1881 Census data on the Roberts family in Coedpoeth but did not find anything with John and Hannah as parents. The only relevant listings I could find in Llanarmon parish records was for John Roberts. There are two possibilities for his baptism, Sep 1829 and May 1830. What is of concern is the fact there appears to be no record of Jesse Roberts, Johns younger brother, who was also born in Llanarmon. There is no record for a marriage of John and Hannah in Llanarmon which would have been expected if they were both Church of Wales since Hannah was also born in Llanarmon according to later census records. I don't know where Hannah was buried. The only record I have found is a death registration in Wrexham which means it could be anywhere in the Wrexham registration area so doesn't tell us anything. The same thing applies to the birth of Meshach, that is a Wrexham registration. However with an uncommon name like Meshach it's probably our Meshach. the same thing also applies to Mary Elizabeth, several possible Wrexham registrations. Brian
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Post by brian on Nov 19, 2014 1:33:30 GMT
I'm interested in the Roberts family Coed poeth as both my parents were Roberts before marriage my father son of Herbert Roberts born in 1898 mother Gertrude Williams approx 1900 my mother daughter of Emlyn Roberts 1912 (?) and phoebe Pugh (1900) I did do a great deal of research, moved abroad and computers etc dismantled and I have list all info. Are these names in your family tree Sorry, I have not come across any of the names you mention in the Roberts that I have been investigating. However, all my searching was before 1898 so it is not surprising.
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