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Post by chris12 on Oct 14, 2014 8:54:48 GMT
I am tracing my wife's (Roberts) family and her great grand parents were Michael Roberts born Llanbedr 1850 and Sarah Harrsion Jones b 1851 Manchester - they married in Wrexham 12.9.1876 and had 9 living children inc grandfather John Gwynfryn Roberts all born in Minera. Sarah was working in the Gladstone Arms in 1871 and in 1881 and 1891 she and Michael were grocers in Pentre Bais then Plas Gwyn - I think I have traced the parents of Michael to William b 1814 :;anbedr and Jane? 1815 Llanbedr but am struggling with Sarah's family - her mother was Elizabeth b1829 who married Evan Jones before Seth Roberts (who ran Gladstone Arms in 1871) but I have not got any more detail on any othis group inc Seth Roberts - any help would be welcome
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Post by eluned on Oct 14, 2014 15:54:24 GMT
Hi chris12 and thank you for posting. It was great to see your wife had Llanbedr DC ancestors like my good self.....but does she?! In 1851 Michael is living Ty Mawr, Llanbedr DC. William Roberts 37 labouer Jane Roberts 36 William L Roberts 5 son Elizabeth Roberts 3 daug Michael Roberts 1 son All born Denbighshire U.K. = unknown 1861 Cyfylliog 1871 Llanbedr 1881 Ruthin 1891 Llanbedr Have you found Michael's baptism? eluned
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Post by chris12 on Oct 15, 2014 20:31:11 GMT
Thanks Yes I have the records you added - I have Michaels marriage certificate which has his father as William Roberts, gardener and her father as Evan Jones deceased carpenter - the marriage was Wrexham register office 12.9.1876 - he was 26, Sarah harrison Jones was 25. Both living in Bwlchgwyn, he as a lead miner, her with no profession listed. It looks as if they took over the grocers when Seth Roberts who had married her mother died but I have no record of his death. I also have no record of Michael's birth. I agree that it seems Michael was child of William Roberts b 1814 in Llanbedr who married Jane b1815 but no details of their marriage - interestingly the youngest sibling Ann born in 1858 in Llanbedr married late in 1890s as second wife of Thomas Jones b Bala who lived in Liverpool and two of Michael and Sarah's children, Sarah E and Peter did for a time live with them in Liverpool, Toxteth park as in 1901 and 1911 censuses. My wife's remaining aunt the daughter of John Gwynfryn their 6th child remembers some of her uncles and aunts including the ones who lived in Liverpool. My main problems are not being able to find any trace of Sarah Harrison Jones before her marriage and of her mother's history before she turns u married to Seth Roberts Chris
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Post by nellie on Oct 15, 2014 22:29:10 GMT
Hi Chris, I think the marriage you may be looking for is that of Evan Jones and Elizabeth Harrison. This took place on 4th April 1853 at Wrexham Parish Church. Evan was a carpenter, son of Evan Jones carpenter. He was 36 and a bachelor. Elizabeth was 24 and a spinster, daughter of Edward Harrison, Limeworks Agent. Both of them were living in Minera. Either Sarah Harrison Jones was illegitimate or she gave an incorrect age to get married. Hope this will help you locate Elizabeth's whereabouts before she marries Seth Roberts. Nellie
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Post by nellie on Oct 16, 2014 9:54:33 GMT
Hi Chris, I have found the baptism of Sarah Harrison in Collegiate/Cathedral Manchester on 2 March 1851. She was born on 9 February 1851. Her mother was Elizabeth Harrison - no father. Looking at the 1851 census Elizabeth age 23, unmarried and born in Wales, was living with Robert Jones, born Wales and his wife Ann and family at 2 Court 6, Manchester, St Andrews Parish. I believe her father was Edward Harrison born c1802 and living at Eistedfod Machine, Minera in the 1851 census, Clarke(sic)at Limeworks. I have struggled to find any of them in the 1861 census. Cheers Nellie
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Post by chris12 on Oct 16, 2014 11:02:54 GMT
Thanks very much for all this - really interesting and helpful - I do wonder whether the Jones side who she was living with in Manchester and the Jones who Ann b1858 married into and then in Liverpool were same family and there was a connection, hence the presence in Manchester - the illegitimacy is also interesting and as you infer not that uncommon - only through research did I find out that my paternal grandfather was illegitimate with a whole unknown set of ancestors! Chris
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Post by nellie on Oct 19, 2014 9:23:17 GMT
Hi Chris, Just another bit of information on Elizabeth Harrison's family. Her father Edward Harrison died on 24 January 1860 at Steddfod in Minera and was described as Mine Agent. (Source Index of Administrations and Wills). His effects were less than £100 and Letters of Administration granted to his widow Sarah Harrison. Elizabeth's sister, Jane, died 1st March 1875,age 49, and was buried at Wern Cemetery. She was the wife of Mr John Jones of London. Yet another Jones for you to think about! She was described in the death announcement as the eldest daughter of the late Mr Edward Harrison of the Lime Works, Minera. Pleased to have been of some help. Nellie
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Post by chris12 on Oct 19, 2014 16:56:00 GMT
Nellie Thank you for this - I had just traced the probate and the subsequent probate for Edwards wife Sarah in 1891 - £10 2s 6d I did not have Jane at all but have traced others - the youngest Jonathan ending up in Wrexham poorhouse in 1911, inter Hannah marrying Griffiths Thomas I think Chris
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Post by nellie on Oct 20, 2014 11:08:25 GMT
Hi Chris, I have 4 of Edward and Sarah Harrison's children from non-conformist baptism records Bersham Calvinistic Methodist Adwyr Clawdd Chapel. I don't know whether you have all of these. John born 11 Jan 1823 and baptised 3 Feb 182? Edward born 13 Mar 1824 and baptised 4 Apr 1824 Jane born 3 Jul 1825 and baptised 7 Aug 1825 Margaret born 18 Oct 1826 and baptised 10 Dec 1826 Nellie
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Post by chris12 on Oct 23, 2014 7:54:47 GMT
Nellie Sorry for the delay but work gets in the way! Thank you for these - I did not know about John nor Margaret and certainly had no details regarding these births/baptism etc - I also have no record of their marriage either - something that did puzzle me although there are obviously possibly plenty of reasons is that via the census there is quite a gap between Elizabeth born in 1829 and then the final four children starting with Mary 1842 Hannah 1845 George Frederick 1847 and Jonathan 1850. Sarah if born in 1807 as it seems to me would have had John at 15/16 and eventually Jonathan at 43. I know from mothers family of 10 that there is often a gap - interestingly there is some evidence of effects of syphilis within families causing this but obviously there are plenty of other reasons possible but presumably there may have been children for whom I still have no record. All very illuminating Thank you - Chris
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Post by nellie on Oct 23, 2014 8:47:32 GMT
Hi Chris, The gap you have found may be explained by the marriages I have found. Edward Harrison married Sarah Lloyd on 5 Apr 1822 in Brymbo. Her maiden name was also given on the baptisms of the older children. Surprisingly Edward Harrison, widower, of Minera, married another Sarah Lloyd on 8 Nov 1840 at Wrexham Parish Church. She is daughter of David Lloyd and he is son of Edward Harrison. Unfortunately the record shows them as Full Age but given the birth of the final 4 children starting in 1842 I would suspect that this is the same Edward Harrison at both marriages. A Sarah Harrison age 34 was buried on 8 Jun 1833 in Wrexham Parish, from Bersham. My guess would be that this is the first Mrs Harrison. This raises the possibility of at least one more child after Elizabeth. nellie
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Post by chris12 on Oct 23, 2014 12:53:41 GMT
Hi Nellie AH! I had wondered about the possibility of 2 marriages and even 2 sarahs but had not expected 2 Sarah Lloyds - re the David Lloyd I am a little unclear - you said he was a son of Edward Harrison? Chris
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Post by nellie on Oct 24, 2014 11:46:37 GMT
Sorry about my poor grammar, Chris. Edward Harrison's father on the marriage certificate was also an Edward Harrison. Edward senior was a Miner and Edward junior a Quarryman. Sarah Lloyd was a Servant from Wrexham Abbot and her father was a Farmer. The 2 witnesses were Charles Lloyd and Catherine Lloyd. Hope this makes it clearer for you, Nellie.
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Post by chris12 on Oct 24, 2014 14:04:41 GMT
Ah - thanks - all is now clear. Will continue to see if I can find any more details of the various parts of the family. I am now reasonably clear as to what was going on and the bare details - it is so very useful to have these additional details that I can't get at a distance - we live in Devon. Chris
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