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Post by jojo on Feb 7, 2009 9:36:18 GMT
Hi all
In 1901 I found this family at 4 Tudor Street, Bersham ref RG13/5219/105/22
John Rogers, age 52, M, leadminer, born Welshpool, Shropshire Catherine Rogers, age 51, M born Pennerly Worthen Salop/Shropshire Thomas Rogers, age 12, son, born Durham England Edward Rogers, age 3, grandson, born Coedpoeth Evan Thomas, age 47, brother in law, born Pennerly, Shropshire
Catherine & her brother Evan were both children of Alice Carrington (Llandegla 1821) and Daniel Thomas (Shropshire 1815). Evan was deaf & dumb and lived with his mother Alice until she died in 1892. His brothers Daniel & John also lived in Coedpoeth with them. I have the family on 1871/1881 & 1891 censuses. I think they must have all moved from Shropshire after Daniel Thomas died about 1864 or 1865.
The first problem I am having is finding John Rogers & Catherine on the 1881 or 1891 censuses. I have found them in 1871 in Shropshire before children but nothing in between.
After his mother died John Thomas (born c1859 Shropshire) married his second cousin Mary Jane Edwards in 1892. Mary Jane's mother was Miriam Cadwalader. By 1901in Coedpoeth they had two children: Miriam Alice Thomas 1894 John William Thomas 1896
The oldest brother Daniel Thomas was age 55 in 1901 still unmarried - living in Coedpoeth with his niece Barbara Ann Thomas who married a John Roberts from Treuddyn in Wrexham in 1882. They had the following children by 1901 Meshach Roberts c1885 Alice Roberts c1887 John Daniel Roberts c1889 Francis C Roberts c1893 Sarah C Roberts c1895 Aron Roberts c1900
The second problem is that other than her birth record in 1857, the earliest I've been able to trace Barbara on a census is in Wrexham 1881 where she was working as a servant for a Pugh family.
If anyone is researching any of these families or has any other information I would love to make a connection.
Heather
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Post by tominera on Feb 8, 2009 15:52:43 GMT
Hi, Realise some maybe repeats or you already have them THOMAS Evan age 72y bu 6 7 1926---Pl 1693 No IMG ROBERTS Frances Carrington age 37y b14 5 1930 Pl 1378 No IMG ROBERTS Merab age 77y bu 12 9 1959 Pl 1388 IMG 9898 ROBERTS Mesach age 83 d 16 1 1969 bu 22 1 1969--both in plot 1388 & IMG 9898 THOMAS Daniel 69 y bu 7 1 1914 ROBERTS Barbara Ann age 88y d 8 10 1993 bur 15 10 1993 JONES Margaret(ashes) age 86y d 8 1 1993 bur 26 1 1993 ROBERTS Annie age 83y d 12 11 1966 bur 16 11 1966 ROBERTS John age 75 bu 2 10 1933--All 5 in plot 149 Coedpoeth Cemetery IMG 8130 Coedpoeth Wesleyan Circuit Baptisms John William son of John & Mary Jane Thomas born 18 7 1895 & Bapt. 26 8 1895 Miriam Alice daughter of John & Mary Jane Thomas born 16 3 1894 & Bapt.5 4 1894 Parents were living in Tabor Hill, Coedpoeth at the time of both baptisms.------------Good Luck Tom ;D
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Post by jojo on Feb 8, 2009 21:35:24 GMT
Hi Tom Thank you very much for all that information. It really helps to find them all Heather
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Post by jojo on Feb 9, 2009 0:13:48 GMT
It's amazing how the pieces fall into place sometimes Tom's information on Merab Roberts led me to look for her. She married firstly to Robert John Rogers in 1901. He died in 1909 and she remarried to Meshach Roberts in 1912. Merab's mother was a Lydia Thomas from Pennerley, Worthen Shropshire (1852) who also married a John Roberts c1849 Llandudno. In 1871 Lydia is living in Coedpoeth as a servant for Thomas Carrington (1824-1903) I have a hunch that Lydia Thomas and Barbara Ann Thomas were sisters which means that Meshach and Merab were cousins. Many thanks again Tom ;D H
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Post by jojo on Feb 11, 2009 13:39:07 GMT
This couple/family are confusing In June Q 1870 Montgomery District, Catharine Mary Thomas marries a John GRIFFITHS In 1871 John & Catharine ROGERS, both age 21, born Worthen Shropshire are living in Worthen Montgomery In 1881 John GRIFFITHS, age 33, born Bromley Worthen, Shropshire & Catherine GRIFFITHS, age 31, born Pennerley Shropshire are residents of Chilton Durham, along with children Maurice GRIFFITHS age 8, born Bromley Shropshire. Lucy GRIFFITHS, age 4, born Bloxwich, Staffordshire. Both of the children's births were registered surname ROGERS. (Maurice is registered as Maurice John) In 1891 John GRIFFITHS, age 41, born Worthen & Catherine GRIFFITHS, age 41, born Pennerley are residents of Hetton le Hole Durham, along with children Maurice GRIFFITHS aged 18 Lucy GRIFFITHS aged 14 Rachiel GRIFFITHS age 9, born FerryHill Durham (registered as Rachel ROGERS) Elizabeth GRIFFITHS age 7, born Hetton le Hole Durham (registered as Elizabeth ROGERS) Nellie GRIFFITHS, age 5, born Hetton le Hole Durham (registered as Nellie GRIFFITHS) Thomas GRIFFITHS, age 1, born Hetton le Hole Durham (also registered as Thomas GRIFFITHS) In 1897 Maurice John ROGERS marries an Alice Selina ROBERTS, registered Wrexham Mar Q 11b 366 They appear on the 1901 Census in Bersham as Morris ROGERS, age 29, born Shropshire and Alice Selia ROGERS, age 29, born Coedpoeth. Also in the household is a George Rogers brother in law (haven't figured out who he is !) In 1897 Lucy Griffiths ROGERS marries Richard ROGERS, registered Wrexham Sep Q 11b 401 In 1901 Lucy ROGERS, married, age 25, born Wolverhampton Staffs is working as a Nurse in a household in Ecclesall Yorkshire Also in the household is Bessie G ROGERS, age 17, born Durham, working as a Cook. I haven't found Richard ROGERS yet. In 1899 Rachel Griffiths ROGERS marries Joseph CROSSLEY registered West Derby 8b 1175 In 1901 Rachael G CROSSLEY, age 19, born Ferry Hill Durham & Joseph CROSSLEY age 33 , police constable are living in West Derby Also with them is Nellie G ROGERS, age 15, born Hetton le Hole Durham In 1901 the parents John ROGERS, age 52, born Welshpool and Catherine ROGERS, age 51, born Pennerley are in Bersham at 4 Tudor Street along with Thomas ROGERS, age 12 and grandson Edward ROGERS as outlined earlier in this thread. My only question is WHY USE TWO SURNAMES??? At first I thought it was a question of remarriage but it does appear that they switched back and forth. Any other thoughts or suggestions Heather
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Post by sunnyrhyl on Feb 11, 2014 20:39:43 GMT
Hello Heather
Hello Heather & JoJo Whilst some years have passed since your original post, I came across it by accident whilst researching my own family tree. Nellie Griffiths [born 19.3.1886 in Hetton-le-Hole] was my paternal Grandmother. As you know, her parents were John Griffiths & Catherine Griffiths formally Thomas. John & Catherine were married at "The Parish Church" in the Parish of Hope, Shropshire on 25.6.1870. John gave his father as William Rogers and Catherine hers as Daniel Thomas. However census returns in respect of John Griffiths, suggest that he was born before his parents actually married, so on birth he took his mother's maiden name. On his parents marriage he was perfectly entitled to take his fathers surname, which he did later on in life. This evolution of surname being reflected in the registration details of their various children. By the 1911 Census, Catherine, now a widow, had dropped the Griffiths entirely in favour of Rogers. If their is anybody still researching this family, would love to continue this link.
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Post by jojo on Feb 13, 2014 23:30:11 GMT
Hi sunnyrhyl Thanks for posting and welcome to Minera History. Interesting to get more background after all this time and learn why the name changes. How much do you know about Catherine Mary Thomas? I know quite a bit about her mother Alice Carrington, but very little about the origins of her father Daniel Thomas? Perhaps we can help each other out! Heather
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Post by sunnyrhyl on Feb 19, 2014 20:31:09 GMT
Hello Heather, THANKS FOR THE WELCOME, GLAD YOU ARE STILL INTERESTED IN THIS FAMILY. DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT ALICE CARRINGTON, AND NOT MUCH MORE ABOUT DANIEL THOMAS. However from their marriage certificate[ 30.11.1844], Daniel Thomas describes himself as of full age, a widower from Pennerly, father Evan Thomas. Believe that Daniel was one of at least 6 children, born to Evan[ b1785 d 27.2.1850 Pennerly] & Catherine Thomas, formally Gell [b1784 Worthen d 16.6.1865 Pennerly] They were married about May 1807. Following the Gell line back she was the daughter of John and Martha Corfield. John Gell was the son of Francis Gell [Carsington Derbyshire] & Martha Niccholls, who were married in Worthen about 1736. It is possible that Francis Gell is a descendant of Sir John Gell of Hopton Hall, Derbyshire. My daughter's father-in-law is helping me research this side of the family. Hope that what I have is of interest and lookforward to hearing more on the Carrington side. Regards Sunnyrhyl.
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Post by jojo on Feb 22, 2014 3:48:06 GMT
Hi Sunnyrhyl Alice Frances Carrington was sister to my 2xGreat Grandfather Francis. She was baptised at LLandegla, Denbs. Her parents were John Carrington, bapt Llandegla Jul 18,1795-buried Apr 24, 1837 and Barbara Jones, c1790-Sep 06,1868, (married Sep 19, 1820) John Carrington was the son of Thomas Carrington (1756-1827) and Jane Foulkes (1759-1847) (married Jul 11, 1789 Llandegla) Thomas was bapt Feb 29, 1756 Eryrys Denbs. - He actually left a will which you can find online on the National Library of Wales website. Hope this helps! Heather
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Post by sunnyrhyl on Mar 2, 2014 19:17:12 GMT
Hello Heather, Many thanks for this extra information, found the will extremely interesting, possible link with my daughter's father-in-law's ancestors via Thomas Carrington. Sunnyrhyl.
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Post by jojo on Mar 3, 2014 2:30:28 GMT
Hello Heather, possible link with my daughter's father-in-law's ancestors via Thomas Carrington. Sunnyrhyl. Glad you found the will interesting If your daughter's F-I-L is connected to the Carrington families there is plenty of meat on that bone!! I found sorting out the Carrington families in North Wales challenging to say the least! What became apparent is that the earliest Carringtons arrived in Halkyn, Flintshire from Derbyshire in the early 1700s. The earliest one I found in the baptisms in Flintshire was a Francis Carrington (s/o John) born c 1720 (sorry to be vague on dates but have to rely on memory as I don't currently have access to the PC holding those records). Long story short, some of his direct descendants migrated to Minera in the 19th century, where there were two Francis Carringtons of similar ages both living in the same area at the same time. My lot were descended from the grandfather of the Thomas C born in LLandegla. That line goes back to a marriage in Llanarmon yn Ial c1743? between a John Griffiths als Carrington and an Ann Blunt. I live in Canada, so not had access to physical records but I've looked and looked online for the baptism of John Griffth als Carrington in Halkyn and have a hunch he may possibly have been brother to Francis Carrington (bap Halkyn c1720) but no definitive proof to tie the branches together. My "John" could just as easily be descended from another branch of the Carringtons in Derbyshire. There is a marriage bond in 1719? issued for a John Carrington in Halkyn but no evidence appears to exist that the actual marriage took place! What is interesting is that there is an estate bond at NLW relating to the death of an Elizabeth Carrington (c1743? at Halkyn), whose son Francis Carrington is described as "of Youlgreave, Derbyshire". It's all an intriguing puzzle. I don't suppose I will ever find proof of connections either way, but it was a lot of fun researching it all at the time!! From looking at the parish registers of Youlgreave and the surrounding area brings up lots of Carringtons in the mid to late 17th century, but then a lot of these families seemed to disappear from the PRs. There is a possibility they all turned non-conformist enmasse, but what is more likely is that a lot of lead mining families moved to North Wales at around this time because of the opening up of lead mining in North Wales by the Grosvenor estate. Hence the proliferation of "Derbyshire" and English surnames still seen in North Wales today! HTH Heather
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Post by sunnyrhyl on Mar 9, 2014 19:41:16 GMT
Hello Heather, Many thanks for the latest episode in the "trace the Carringtons" saga. On Wednesday decided to visit Trefydd Buchan. The farm house itself has been modernised considerably, but the out buildings retain much of their antiquity. Spoke to the lady of the house, who knew nothing about the Carringtons, she said her husbands family had farmed it for about 300 years, but was quite happy to let me photograph the farm [would you be interested in a copy?]. However,in a description of Llandegla, it speaks of the township of Trefydd Bychan, so the farm might well have given its name to a small community in the area. From my reading of Thomas Carrington,s will I assume him to be a miner, but then he speaks of bequeathing lands, which suggests I might have miss-read "farmer". In the very near future I will be visiting the county records office, on a different enquiry, but will also include anything I can pick up on the Carringtons. Interesting that you live in Canada, did you emigrate? My nephew [brothers son] is currently in his last year at The University of British Columbia, Vancouver. My brother used to work in Toronto, where he met his wife, before they returned to the UK and settled down in Worcester. Regards Lynn.
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Post by jojo on Mar 9, 2014 22:33:05 GMT
Hi Lynn Thank you for the offer of a pic. Am not sure what the procedure is to post one on here, but I will send you my email by personal message if that is easier. I have a book about Llandegla area history will have to look at it again re the "township" question re Trefydd Buchan. In 1841 Jane Carrington was recorded living with her son Aaron (butcher) at Tafarn y Glasdwy? which is just east of Llandegla. Jane died there aged 88 (!) Nov 6, 1847 according to her death certificate. On the third page of the Thomas will, he is described as a miner. Its likely that he farmed a smallholding of some kind as well as mining. I think this was quite common. I've done some reading about lead mining (19th century and earlier). Apparently there was such a thing as "venturing for lead". Some miners would bid on a contract for certain areas of the mine, gambling that they would find seams of lead worth more than if they worked for wages. Perhaps this was how they accumulated a bit more than the average? In any event, it was a tough way to earn a living of any kind.
Thomas' son in law William Hooson was born in Whitford Flintshire. He and his son Francis are both listed as Lead Miners on the 1841 census in Kinnerton Shropshire. They both appear back in Brymbo in 1851, along with Ellen and the rest of the family. Hooson or Houson was also a Derbyshire family name, appearing in the Bakewell Derbyshire parish registers in the late 17th and early 18th century records.
You are so lucky to live close to such history in North Wales! I've lived most of my life overseas, but sadly, during the brief time I did live in North Wales in the 60s, I was too young to appreciate the value of family history, let alone researching it!
I will send you a pm Heather
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Post by sunnyrhyl on Mar 11, 2014 20:36:29 GMT
Hi Lynn Thank you for the offer of a pic. Am not sure what the procedure is to post one on here, but I will send you my email by personal message if that is easier. I have a book about Llandegla area history will have to look at it again re the "township" question re Trefydd Buchan. In 1841 Jane Carrington was recorded living with her son Aaron (butcher) at Tafarn y Glasdwy? which is just east of Llandegla. Jane died there aged 88 (!) Nov 6, 1847 according to her death certificate. On the third page of the Thomas will, he is described as a miner. Its likely that he farmed a smallholding of some kind as well as mining. I think this was quite common. I've done some reading about lead mining (19th century and earlier). Apparently there was such a thing as "venturing for lead". Some miners would bid on a contract for certain areas of the mine, gambling that they would find seams of lead worth more than if they worked for wages. Perhaps this was how they accumulated a bit more than the average? In any event, it was a tough way to earn a living of any kind. Thomas' son in law William Hooson was born in Whitford Flintshire. He and his son Francis are both listed as Lead Miners on the 1841 census in Kinnerton Shropshire. They both appear back in Brymbo in 1851, along with Ellen and the rest of the family. Hooson or Houson was also a Derbyshire family name, appearing in the Bakewell Derbyshire parish registers in the late 17th and early 18th century records. You are so lucky to live close to such history in North Wales! I've lived most of my life overseas, but sadly, during the brief time I did live in North Wales in the 60s, I was too young to appreciate the value of family history, let alone researching it! I will send you a pm Heather
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Post by sunnyrhyl on Mar 11, 2014 20:38:29 GMT
Hi Lynn Thank you for the offer of a pic. Am not sure what the procedure is to post one on here, but I will send you my email by personal message if that is easier. I have a book about Llandegla area history will have to look at it again re the "township" question re Trefydd Buchan. In 1841 Jane Carrington was recorded living with her son Aaron (butcher) at Tafarn y Glasdwy? which is just east of Llandegla. Jane died there aged 88 (!) Nov 6, 1847 according to her death certificate. On the third page of the Thomas will, he is described as a miner. Its likely that he farmed a smallholding of some kind as well as mining. I think this was quite common. I've done some reading about lead mining (19th century and earlier). Apparently there was such a thing as "venturing for lead". Some miners would bid on a contract for certain areas of the mine, gambling that they would find seams of lead worth more than if they worked for wages. Perhaps this was how they accumulated a bit more than the average? In any event, it was a tough way to earn a living of any kind. Thomas' son in law William Hooson was born in Whitford Flintshire. He and his son Francis are both listed as Lead Miners on the 1841 census in Kinnerton Shropshire. They both appear back in Brymbo in 1851, along with Ellen and the rest of the family. Hooson or Houson was also a Derbyshire family name, appearing in the Bakewell Derbyshire parish registers in the late 17th and early 18th century records. You are so lucky to live close to such history in North Wales! I've lived most of my life overseas, but sadly, during the brief time I did live in North Wales in the 60s, I was too young to appreciate the value of family history, let alone researching it! I will send you a pm Heather
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