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Post by johnmowens on Nov 17, 2011 12:32:22 GMT
Although I originate from Brymbo and have many ancestors from Brymbo village and surrounding areas, I have just discovered that I have ancestors who lived at the 'Joiners Arms Inn', Bwlchgwyn. In 1881, 1891, 1901 (and I assume until his death in 1909) my Great Grand Uncle, David PUGH was Landlord of 'The Joiners'. It appears that his daughter, Mary Elizabeth PUGH, took on the pub and was noted as such in the 1911 census.
From Bennetts Directory 1932, there was a 'E. Pugh' stated as landlord. Was this still Mary Elizabeth Pugh in charge? In a 1862 Directory, a D. Pugh is stated as being 'Beer retailer'. My David Pugh lived then in Maes Maelor; could this have been the house which became the ' Joiners Arms@ in later years?
It appears that my ancestors ran the Joiners for many years and any information about it would be very much appreciated.
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Post by eluned on Nov 17, 2011 19:37:16 GMT
Hi johnmowens and welcome to the forum From Pubs and Inquests by J Clifford Davies: "The road where the Joiners Arms is, was called Rhos Street in 1871 when the landlord was Robert Jones. From before 1892 until his death in 1909 it was kept by Mr David Pugh, whom it was reported in the paper to be one of the best known people in the area. He carried on as a grocer , publican and former pig dealer as well as being well know in religious circles."
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Post by eluned on Nov 17, 2011 20:12:50 GMT
Wrexham Advertiser Sat Aug 9th 1890 Breachers of the Sunday Closing Act. David Pugh, Joiners Arms, Bwlchgwyn - charged with a similar offence. PC G Jones stated that 5mins after the men left the Westminster Arms they went to the Joiners Arms and there found four men who lived less than 3 miles of that house. By the bench : The Joiners Arms is about 50 yrds from the Westminster. PC Joseph Wynne corroborated. Mr Ashton Bradley, for the defence, said that the defendent assured him that he had exercised, according to the best of his judgement, all reasonable precautions to assertain if the men found on his premises were travellers. They told him they were, naming the places where they lived and if they told him a lie, the offence was their's and not Pugh's. The defendant, Thomas Jones, labourer Brymbo, and Jacob Potter, collier gave evidence in support of this defence. The bench considered the case proved and charged the defendant £1 and costs.
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Post by johnmowens on Nov 18, 2011 12:49:59 GMT
Thanks for your welcome, Eluned.
Also many thanks for your information about David Pugh and the 'Joiners Arms', which I visited a few times in the '60s and once in the '80s without having any inkling of my ancestors association with it. It was only this week on the delivery of my GreatGreatGrandfather, Samuel PUGH's death certificate that I first learned of this connection. I learned that Samuel had died at the Joiners on 12 Jan 1892 and the informant was David Pugh, Son and publican of the Joiners! This was a surprise because although he had lived almost all his life in Bwlchgwyn, he had moved to Pentre Broughton and living there in 1891. It is interesting that the PUGHs ran the Joiners for at least 30 years, and possibly, if the 1932 E. Pugh is Mary Elizabeth (David's daughter), 50+ years! More to investigate!
Thanks again for your interest and information.
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Post by eluned on Nov 19, 2011 13:04:40 GMT
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Post by eluned on Nov 19, 2011 13:23:24 GMT
1911 Joiner's Arms Inn, Bwlchgwyn RG14/34041/45 Ann Pugh wid 70 b.Brymbo Mary Elizabeth daur 29 Inn Keeper, licencee b.Bwlchgwyn Catherine Ann daur 40 waitress b.Brymbo
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Post by eluned on Nov 19, 2011 14:20:48 GMT
Death reg Wrexham Mary E Pugh 64yrs Jun 1/4 1946
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Post by hilary on Nov 20, 2011 1:14:54 GMT
HI, just a little background for you. The joiners arms used to be at the top of Nebo Road, (There is a very faded picture of it somewhere on my website), at the junction with Stryt Maelor, It was demolished a few years ago and some very ugly (imo) houses are there now. As you noted, it had a beer licence only.
You discovered that Mr Pugh had a house on Maes Maelor. Maes Maelor is about a mile further away, up by Four Crosses, it was not unusual for a publican to run more than one pub/beerhouse in Bwlchgwyn - or maybe the record should have read "Stryt Maelor" instead? Also, there w moor beerhouses from time to time in between the census returns!
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Post by johnmowens on Nov 20, 2011 16:11:53 GMT
Thanks Eluned. I did have the 1911 info and the death cert but I will check the Electoral Register as you suggest. it seems that Miss Pugh (poss. Mary Elizabeth) was the landlady of the Joiners during WW2 according to an book extract on this site. This could mean that the Pughs were associated with this pub for at least 60+ years. Interesting!
Thanks Hilary for your info. I am sad to learn that the Joiners Arms has been demolished and so am even more interested in obtaining a photo of it. What is the address of your website?
I intend checking old OS maps of the area. Thanks again.
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Post by eluned on Nov 20, 2011 16:53:18 GMT
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Post by hilary on Nov 20, 2011 22:08:52 GMT
HI, I can't update my website at the moment, I need to rewrite it (huge job) with a modern program, so I've popped a picture of the Joiner's Arms on my Flickr account at www.flickr.com/photos/welshhilary/6372149615/in/photostream(I hope that works!) I don't mind who uses it but I would appreciate it if the credit stayed on - a couple of years ago, when I had an amazing scanner, I did a lot of work to get this picture as it was just a speck on an old photograph It looks really good if you go to All sizes and choose the largest view - the joiner's arms is dead centre above the "b" in my name,
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Post by johnmowens on Nov 21, 2011 9:00:46 GMT
Thanks. It is an interesting photo; it is similar to how I remember the Joiners from the late 50's.
The Pugh's lived at 12 Top Bwlch, Bwlchgwyn in 1861 and 1871. Does anyone know exactly where this might be or was?
Many thanks.
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Post by hilary on Nov 21, 2011 14:19:16 GMT
I remember the family who used to live there in the 50s/early 60s - but only as faces! I was very young at the time!
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Post by hilary on Nov 21, 2011 14:33:46 GMT
I think Top Bwlch, going by the place names either side - Westminster to Tan-y-Graig - is just the collection of cottages, most long gone, between roughly the War Memorial and HighView House (past Bethesda). There were rows of cottages between Bethesda and HighView, but I'm more inclined to think of the cottages at Top Bwlch as being where the silica quarrey is now. Interestingly, Tan y Graig, which is on the high ground (we used to call it The Score - anyone remember that?) is right on the border of Bwlchgwyn and Maes Maelor, and I recall mention of Maes Maelor earlier.
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Post by hilary on Nov 21, 2011 15:24:49 GMT
One last thought, I still favour somewhere close to Tan y Graig as being the address as, in 1871, Richard Williams, farmer, lives close by. I can't remember the date that the second (recent) Bethesda Chapel was built, but Wesley Road wasn't named as such until then and it is doubtful whether there was much in the way of a road at all beyond Stryt Maelor as the original roman road went up Wesley Road until it reached what we now call Stryt Maelor, then followed Stryt Maelor along to Nant View and then down Nant Road. However, there were a lot of cottages on the "new" part of Wesley Road (I was born in one of them), long gone, but situated nicely, as the 1871 enumerator made his way round, to be known as Top Bwlch. I seem to remember that the original Bethesda chapel was called Top Chapel, too, in some old correspondence.
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Post by johnmowens on Nov 21, 2011 17:40:06 GMT
Thanks Hilary. I am familiar with Bwlchgwyn but only the main roads i.e. Brymbo Road, A525 & Old road Bwlchgwyn. Are you saying that Top Bwlch cottages were likely to be on the A525 between the'hairpin' bend and Bethesda (is this on the A525) ? Or on the 'new' part of Wesley Road? I am working on Google Street View maps; they are great but of course of the present day! I intend buying a old OS map of Bwlchgwyn soon.
Good Hunting
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Post by hilary on Nov 21, 2011 18:21:42 GMT
I think more likely to be the new part of Wesley Road. I remember, when I was little, there were "bits" of cottages in the walls in all sorts of places, but the cottages also went across the fields on the higher ground to where the quarry is there. It would have been all paths in those days. That's my feeling. If I have time later (and I'll probably find the time) I'll have a longer look the census, but they were rarely written up in a logical way apart from the turnpike road and the older roads. I think that Richard Williams was around HighView at that time, and he is listed close to the Pughs on the census.
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Post by hilary on Nov 22, 2011 0:37:21 GMT
I've checked various census, and I'm still of the same opinion, that this Pugh family lived up towards Bethesda Chapel somewhere before taking on the Joiner's Arms. Everyone around him seems to be a lead miner, and I'll stick with that area, somewhere from the top of Wesley Road towards Bethesda and up towards Tan y Graig.
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Post by annedw on Nov 22, 2011 7:55:20 GMT
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Post by tominera on Nov 22, 2011 20:41:32 GMT
Hi, Do you have Davids Obituary from the Welsh Magazine Y Cylchgrawn ? I wll Gladly put it on here and maybe some kind soul will translate it that is if you do not already have it--He was living in the Joiners and died suddenly apparently Regards Tom
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Post by eluned on Nov 22, 2011 21:11:31 GMT
A Wesleyan publican
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Post by tominera on Nov 22, 2011 21:31:22 GMT
Obituary Of David Pugh, Joiners Arms, Bwlchgwyn--My translation of the first part----David died suddenly on 10th August 1909 aged 64 Years and was buried in Bethesda Chapel Graveyard Bwlchgwyn. Over to you now--- "Roedd yn garictor gwreiddiol ac yn eirwir a gonest yn ei holl ymwneyd a phawb cydymdeimlir yn ddwfn iawn a'r weddw a'r plant a'r teulu oll yn eu profedigaeth lem" There is also a Samuel Pugh aged 89 years who died 12 1 1892 and was buried 16 1 1892in Bethesda.--Regards Tom
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Post by nainffrith4 on Nov 22, 2011 23:10:33 GMT
This is the translation using the welsh translation site He garictor original and truthful and honest in all its ymwneyd and everyone cydymdeimlir very deep and the widow and children and family in their bereavement strict "
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Post by nainffrith4 on Nov 22, 2011 23:21:23 GMT
Can't find a translation for Garictor but Ymwneyd is corncern and the last one is sympathize.
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Post by johnmowens on Nov 23, 2011 9:22:16 GMT
Thanks very much, tominera and nainffrith4; I do not have this obituary although I do have his death details. I am very grateful to you both.
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Post by johnmowens on Nov 23, 2011 15:39:56 GMT
I believe that the Bethesda Chapel has been demolished but does the graveyard still exist so that I could see David's and Samuel's graves?
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Post by annedw on Nov 23, 2011 16:35:42 GMT
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Post by johnmowens on Nov 23, 2011 17:50:34 GMT
It seems that there are not any PUGHs on either list. At least the graveyard still exists!
Thanks annedw
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Post by annedw on Nov 23, 2011 19:31:15 GMT
Listing of purchaser/info of burial plots at Bethesda Wesleyan Methodist Cemetery. This information covers the middle section only. The lower section which covers the oldest graves are not covered. Likewise the top section which houses more recent burials is also not included.
From the Bwlchgwyn pages above , this may mean that the older and newer section details have not been added to the site, but still might be in the registers. I can`t say for sure, but it would be worth checking, it does seem there are no headstones though.
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Post by eluned on Nov 23, 2011 19:31:26 GMT
Bwlchgwyn Bethesda MIs booklet No Pugh's.
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