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Post by brian on Aug 14, 2014 22:07:19 GMT
Hi Can anyone help me trace some ancestors
My Grandmother was born in Coedpoeth in about 1868. Her name was Mary Elizabeth Roberts. Her fathers name was John Roberts and his occupation is stated as a Contractor on the marriage certificate of Mary. She must have moved to Liverpool where she was working as a Domestic Servant when she married William Lovell in 1888. They got married at St. Judes, West Derby, Liverpool.
I do not have any more information on the Roberts family in Coedpoeth. Can anyone help or tell me where I could possibly find information.
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Post by frankm on Aug 15, 2014 13:17:06 GMT
Have you tried the census?
This one is possibly the family you are looking for :-
England and Wales Census, 1871
Mary E Roberts born 1870 Coed-Poeth, Denbighshire
Father - John Roberts born 1830 Llanarmon, Denbighshire
Mother - Hannah Roberts born 1831 Llanarmon, Denbighshire
also her brother Meshech Roberts born 1862 Coed-Poeth, Denbighshire
Residence - Coed Poeth, Bersham, Denbighshire, Wales
In the 1861 census just John and Hannah
Mary's birth date is a little off but census dates are rarely exactly right. She may even have added a couple of years.
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Post by tominera on Aug 15, 2014 18:58:24 GMT
Hi, If Meshech turns out to be the correct one---There is one buried in Coedpoeth Cemetery who fits the bill. In Plot 1352 Is a Meshech died 12 6 1900 aged 38 yrs buried 15 6 1900--only his details on headstone which is laid flat and No 9991 on Lee Wettons site--also from the register are his wife,s details Mary Jane Roberts buried in same grave 2 8 1932 aged 66 years Good Luck Tom
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Post by brian on Aug 19, 2014 16:27:06 GMT
Hi Thanks for the info. I had looked at the census data but was rating it lower probability because of a few inconsistencies.i.e. Mary's age; Mary's birthplace in the 1881 census which is given as Leeswood, Flintshire;John's occupation (contractor on the marriage cert but lead miner on the two census returns. I can't find an birth info for Mary (i.e. baptism) I understand there were many non-conformist chapels in Coedpoeth but no parish church. Is there any non-conformist baptism info anywhere?
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Post by eluned on Aug 23, 2014 19:17:01 GMT
Coedpoeth was apart of the Wrexham parish at that time linkSalem Chapel baptisms 1864 - 1930 linkWern Chapel baptisms linkEluned
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Post by annedw on Aug 28, 2014 17:50:59 GMT
1893 Wrexham, Civil Marriage Wrexham County Borough (Wrexham) WM/040/39
ROBERTS Meshach EVANS Mary Jane WM/040/39
Pity it`s a Civil marriage , we could have checked a parish register for a fathers name. It would have been interesting to see if it was also John Roberts.
This may be Mary Jane in 1901 11 Rhosberse Road , Bersham Mary Jane Roberts 35 widow b Adwy Thomas John Roberts 6 son b Adwy William Owen Roberts 4 son b Adwy
19116 Rock Place Nant Coedpoeth Mary Jane Roberts 45 widow b Adwy Thomas John Roberts 16 b Adwy William Owen Roberts 14 b Adwy
View
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Post by annedw on Aug 28, 2014 18:53:25 GMT
1891 Talwrn
Amended
1881 Talwrn
John Roberts 50 lead miner b Llanarmon Hannah Roberts 49 b "" Meshach Roberts 19 stoker b Bersham Mary E. Roberts 19 XXX b Leeswood. mistranscribed, she is 11 on the actual image ?
Does this throw a spanner in the works, if she was married by 1891.
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Post by frankm on Aug 28, 2014 20:50:35 GMT
Not really as I think the one you have quoted is the 1881 census ;-) By 1891 John is 62, a widower and a coal miner Meshach Roberts is 29, can't make out what he does but something to do with mining. Sarah Edwards 40 servant and that's all.
This to me looks the most likely family, census information tends to be inconsistent although in this case a transcription error. If Mary was married in 1888, she would have been around 18 but could have given her age as older?
Wonder if the apparent change from lead miner to coal miner explains "contractor" on the marriage certificate. John may have been between jobs?
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Post by annedw on Aug 29, 2014 19:31:20 GMT
Another match for Meshach . 1901 Hawarden Meshack Roberts 37 railway signalman b Minera Catherine Roberts 32 b Flints Mary E Roberts 4 b Hawarden Roberts E Roberts 2 b Hawarden Albert J Roberts 8 Months b Hawarden 1911 married 16 years. Highfield Hawarden Meshach Roberts 48 assurance collector b Talwrn Bersham Catherine Roberts 42 b Cilcain Flint Mary Elyabeth Roberts 14 b Hawarden Robert Edward Roberts 12 b Hawarden Florence Catherine Roberts 8 b Hole. Dec 1894 ROBERTS Meshach JONES Catherine Chester, Civil Marriage Another marriage we can`t check father for a link
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Post by annedw on Aug 29, 2014 20:24:34 GMT
Not really as I think the one you have quoted is the 1881 census ;-) By 1891 John is 62, a widower and a coal miner Meshach Roberts is 29, can't make out what he does but something to do with mining. Sarah Edwards 40 servant and that's all. This to me looks the most likely family, census information tends to be inconsistent although in this case a transcription error. If Mary was married in 1888, she would have been around 18 but could have given her age as older? Wonder if the apparent change from lead miner to coal miner explains "contractor" on the marriage certificate. John may have been between jobs? It`s best if we can see the full details. 1891 Smelt. .Evans Row, John Roberts 62 coal miner b Llanarmon Moshuch Roberts 29 ?? driver colliery b Coedpoeth Sarah Edwards 40 servant.
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Post by annedw on Aug 29, 2014 20:28:42 GMT
Hehehe. I recognised the writing on the census returns, it is very small . My Gt Grandfather was the enumerator
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Post by frankm on Aug 30, 2014 3:59:21 GMT
Must depend where you get the image from. Not on my copy. Great to have such a contact with the past.
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Post by annedw on Aug 30, 2014 8:25:10 GMT
Enumerators routes and his name are usually on page 1 . They sometimes are quite useful in trying to work out where a family were living if you can follow the route.
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Post by annedw on Aug 30, 2014 16:44:47 GMT
Mary Elizabeth Roberts marriage.
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Post by annedw on Aug 30, 2014 17:07:18 GMT
I found a tree on Ancestry , Bmorris, I`m guessing it`s brian. There are two very nice pictures of Mary Elizabeth,.
In all the census after her marriage, William Lovell is a railway signal man, Same occupation as the Meshach I found in 1891. I wonder if that is a link, William Lovell was in London working with the railways in 1886, maybe he met Elizabeth through her possible brother Meshach. Or maybe not and I`m clutching at straws !!
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Post by frankm on Aug 30, 2014 21:00:21 GMT
Sounds a good theory and could also explain why Mary went to Liverpool to work. Would this have been common at that time? Who was she working for? Perhaps they had some connection to the mining company or local "gentry"?
Unfortunately none of what has been suggested gives any proof of being the same family. All looks good and could be right, well worth following up.
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Post by annedw on Aug 31, 2014 17:08:30 GMT
Well there`s no clues in 1881 and 1891. You could only get to find who was there in the electoral registers. that's if they were entitled to vote.
1881 13 Plan St, West Derby Joseph Mc Donnell 48 book maker b Dublin
1891 13 Plan St, West Derby William Badham 29 waiter ,inn , domestic servant b Colwall, Worcestershire
It was quite common for girls to go to Liverpool and work “in service”. One of my family did, came home to Brymbo to marry and then went back to Runcorn to live.
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Post by brian on Sept 2, 2014 19:28:41 GMT
Interesting discussion you have going, can I join in? This is brian and I am the bmorris whose tree you found on ancestry. You appear to have reached the same brick wall that I have, that is proof this is the family I am looking for.
In my thinking so far the biggest concern I have with John, Hannah and Meshach is the age of Mary. All the information from after the marriage are consistent on age; Census 1891, 1901 and 1911 all give her age as being consistent with a birth between April 1867 and April 1868, So does the death registration and the age on the headstone, i.e. 68 yrs in 1936, The marriage certificate also fits in that she would be of Full Age (over 21) in December 1888 (if the John Roberts who is a witness to the marriage was her father then she would have been unlikely to add a couple of years since she would have the parental consent necessary if she were under 21).
Meshach's age stays consistent with a birth year of April 1861 to April 1862 in all the info I can find, Census 1871, 1881, 1891, and his death in 1900 (He died in Plas Power Colliery although I can find no record of an accident there at the time). Why would this be correct and Mary's age wrong in the 1871 and 1881 Census? There are two Meshach births registered in Wrexham: Q3, 1861 and Q4, 1862. The first is consistent with Meshach of Coedpoeth and the other with Meshach of Hawarden, who was born in Talwrn.
I can find no record of Mary's birth in the Minera Parish Registry or in the Salem and Wern Chapel Registries. There are a few births of Mary E Roberts registered in Wrexham Civil Registry but of course this covers all the Wrexham area.
I have read that there were many different non-conformist chapels in Coedpoeth in 1868, some with quite small congregations. Any idea what might have happened to birth records for the smaller ones.
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Post by frankm on Sept 3, 2014 3:37:48 GMT
Can't help with the birth records, not quite sure how that will give evidence to link to Mary Elizabeth who marries William Lovell? What evidence do you have that she was born in Coedpoeth? The only mention I have is on the 1891 census. 1901 and 1911 just say Wrexham.
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Post by brian on Sept 3, 2014 16:56:10 GMT
The 1891 census is the only evidence I have. The other two that say Wrexham both have transcription problems particularly the 1911. The point is why would it say Coedpoeth if it wasn't relevant. It suggests that Mary was there when the census was conducted in 1891 and perhaps not in 1901 and 1911. Coedpoeth was perhaps a bit more than a Londoner could handle and Wrexham was considered close enough. Maybe I'm clutching at straws here but it is the only piece of evidence to suggest a place of birth that I have.
The John/Hannah/Meshach family would explain a couple of things: If the John Roberts who was a witness was her father, why was he there on his own? Hannah died in early 1888. Meshach died in 1900 and John about the same time explains why there is no mention of Mary's family later in the family stories.
I guess I am reverting to the legal route of "a preponderance of circumstantial evidence" for trying to establish a link. The birth of a Mary Elizabeth in Coedpoeth would be a part of this.
Other possibilities could be: There is a Mary Elizabeth Roberts age 5 in the 1871 census with father Edward and mother Elizabeth. Recorded in the 1881 census, living in Llanycil, Merioneth. with her mother who was a ministers widow. She had two brothers Griffith age 12 and Robert age 9, both born in Coedpoeth. The 1868 Slaters Directory has an Edward Robert as minister of an Independent Chapel. This does not fit with Father John a Contractor. Her mother could have married again although Mary would have been over about 10 years old by the time this happened and would have remembered her biological father.
There is another Mary Elizabeth with a father John who was born in Rhostyllen.
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Post by brian on Sept 3, 2014 18:26:43 GMT
Not really as I think the one you have quoted is the 1881 census ;-) By 1891 John is 62, a widower and a coal miner Meshach Roberts is 29, can't make out what he does but something to do with mining. Sarah Edwards 40 servant and that's all. This to me looks the most likely family, census information tends to be inconsistent although in this case a transcription error. If Mary was married in 1888, she would have been around 18 but could have given her age as older? Wonder if the apparent change from lead miner to coal miner explains "contractor" on the marriage certificate. John may have been between jobs? Your thought on "Contractor" may well the case. I found this in a history of Minera Mining "Lead miners in the 18th & 19th centuries were equally independent. The modern lead miner was more a contractor than an employee. The miners worked on a bargain system. Miners had to be skilled negotiators. They would agree with the agent to work a vein for an agreed price per ton. The fee would vary depending on the difficulty of the job. Miners also bargained over the pay for sinking shafts and driving levels." From the same source it appears that in the period 1885 to about 1890 both Lead and Zinc prices were at rock bottom. There were probably many workers laid off.
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Post by annedw on Sept 3, 2014 19:59:56 GMT
deleted.
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Post by annedw on Sept 3, 2014 20:19:14 GMT
The Wrexham Advertiser, Saturday, June 16, 1900; Attachments:
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Post by annedw on Sept 3, 2014 20:21:08 GMT
The Wrexham Advertiser, Saturday, June 16, 1900;
Part 2 of report.
I see my Gt Grandfather Joseph Wilcoxon pops up again
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Post by annedw on Sept 3, 2014 20:26:03 GMT
1893 Wrexham, Civil Marriage Wrexham County Borough (Wrexham) WM/040/39 ROBERTS Meshach EVANS Mary Jane WM/040/39 Pity it`s a Civil marriage , we could have checked a parish register for a fathers name. It would have been interesting to see if it was also John Roberts. This may be Mary Jane in 1901 11 Rhosberse Road , Bersham Mary Jane Roberts 35 widow b Adwy Thomas John Roberts 6 son b Adwy William Owen Roberts 4 son b Adwy View This matches the name Evans in the inquest as father in law, also Meshach`s body was taken to Rhosberse Road.
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Post by frankm on Sept 4, 2014 4:29:02 GMT
> Coedpoeth was perhaps a bit more than a Londoner could handle and Wrexham was considered close enough. Maybe I'm clutching at straws here but it is > the only piece of evidence to suggest a place of birth that I have. Sounds fair enough but now I know that there is nothing concrete re Coedpoeth (although highly likely) if something else turns up. > The John/Hannah/Meshach family would explain a couple of things: > If the John Roberts who was a witness was her father, why was he there on his own? Hannah died in early 1888. > Meshach died in 1900 and John about the same time explains why there is no mention of Mary's family later in the family stories. Can't be sure John was there alone? Any idea who Eliz Evans the other witness was? > There is another Mary Elizabeth with a father John who was born in Rhostyllen. Think I found this too, John was a Smith if its the same one. Found 1871 and 1881 have n't found 1891 yet. The birth date was a better match for later records. Do you know if Mary E was known as Mary Or Elizabeth? I notice in one census it was Elizabeth Mary and the Rhostyllen Mary was Elizabeth in one of the records. I see Joseph Wilcoxon's Gt Granddaughter has come up with some very interesting info Mary's birth date is easily explained away, once she added the years that became her age. William may never have known otherwise. Had she said she was underage there would have been paperwork involved. Easier to say nothing. John was n't going to worry he was a witness anyway so obviously had no objection. Just wish it was as easy to prove it!
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Post by annedw on Sept 4, 2014 10:12:10 GMT
Here is Meshach`s grave.
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Post by annedw on Sept 4, 2014 14:28:06 GMT
The 1891 census is the only evidence I have. The other two that say Wrexham both have transcription problems particularly the 1911. The point is why would it say Coedpoeth if it wasn't relevant. It suggests that Mary was there when the census was conducted in 1891 and perhaps not in 1901 and 1911. Coedpoeth was perhaps a bit more than a Londoner could handle and Wrexham was considered close enough. Maybe I'm clutching at straws here but it is the only piece of evidence to suggest a place of birth that I have.
It`s lucky that the census does say Coedpoeth, and even Wrexham, As for 1901 and 1911, surely if Mary was not at home, then she would be entered in another schedule . A census is taken at an address, not specifically of a family or household. If individuals were visiting friends or relatives that evening, they may, however, be included in the census at that particular address. Many people, particularly young, unmarried women, were in service and may be found at the residence of their employers.
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Post by annedw on Sept 4, 2014 14:42:30 GMT
We can forget the Meshach living in Hawarden I found him in 1881.
1881 Ratcliffe`s Cottage Hawarden Robert Roberts 45 b Kilken Flints, ( Cilcain) Elizabeth Roberts 50 Mesech Roberts 18 b Minera Margaret Roberts 15 b Minera Moses Roberts 12 b Minera Mary Roberts 9 b Hawarden.
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Post by brian on Sept 4, 2014 18:18:19 GMT
The 1891 census is the only evidence I have. The other two that say Wrexham both have transcription problems particularly the 1911. The point is why would it say Coedpoeth if it wasn't relevant. It suggests that Mary was there when the census was conducted in 1891 and perhaps not in 1901 and 1911. Coedpoeth was perhaps a bit more than a Londoner could handle and Wrexham was considered close enough. Maybe I'm clutching at straws here but it is the only piece of evidence to suggest a place of birth that I have.
It`s lucky that the census does say Coedpoeth, and even Wrexham, As for 1901 and 1911, surely if Mary was not at home, then she would be entered in another schedule . A census is taken at an address, not specifically of a family or household. If individuals were visiting friends or relatives that evening, they may, however, be included in the census at that particular address. Many people, particularly young, unmarried women, were in service and may be found at the residence of their employers.
Sorry, what I meant was that she was not in the same room when he completed the form to remind him where or to spell it
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