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Post by annedw on Feb 11, 2008 14:06:51 GMT
I am trying to trace my Grand Father John Richard Jones born 1877 or 1878. He appears on the 1891 Census as John Rich Jones age 14 living with Richard Pritchard in the Nant (the same Richard Pritchard Brynybrain refers to in 1881 census) the census records him as "Grandson" but so far I am unable to find the connection Regards midlandred
I`ve started a new thread for this , it will be easier to spot.
In 1891 John Richard Jones is described as Richard Pritchards Grand son, In 1851 Richard has step siblings called Jones, so could John Richard be the son of William or another later born son. Or the obvious answer is that Richards P`s daughter maried a Jones. Bit of hit and miss really ?,
The 1851 census of Moreton Above, shows Richard Living with his parents in Poukey Thomas Pritchard Head aged 38 Coal Miner born Ruabon Margaret Pritchard Wife aged 30 born Ruabon Richard Pritchard Son aged 13 Coal Miner William Pritchard Son aged 11 Coal Miner Joseph Pritchard Son aged 9 Edward Pritchard Son aged 7 David Pritchard Son aged 3 Miriam Jones Step-Daughter aged 12 Margaret Jones Step Daughter aged 9 William Jones Step-Son aged 8
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Post by annedw on Feb 11, 2008 14:22:29 GMT
These are the only two that show up on the N W Free Bmd site that could be him
Both are in 1879. I guess Ruabon will be the most likely. JONES John Richard Ruabon Wrexham County Borough (Wrexham) RBN/044/61 JONES John Richd Wrexham Wrexham County Borough (Wrexham) WM/056/12
Have you tried parish records, JRs entry should show the maiden name of his mother. Could turn out to be Pritchard.
Just found this, Wrexham Civil Marriages 47 JONES JOHN RICHARD 93 1898-1899 Also JRs marriage certificate should show his fathers name.
Is this John R in 1901 in Assemby Road. John Richard Jones 23 b Ruabon Jane Jones 21 b Bwlchgwyn Myfanwy Jones 1 b Coedpoeth Thomas Jones 11 weeks Coedpoeth.
Do you know if they were Church or Chapel.
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Post by brynybrain on Feb 11, 2008 18:32:21 GMT
John Richard Jones married Jane Hollywell in 1899 and had 2 children,Myfanwy 1900 and Thomas 1901.Jane died in 1903. He then married Sarah Edwards in 1906 and had 5 children Caradog 1908, Edna 1911,Percy 1915,Ernest 1919 and Nancy 1926. Brynybrain.
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Post by midlandred on Feb 14, 2008 0:59:23 GMT
Thanks for starting a new thread.
I have copies of John Richard Jones two marriages
First Marriage 3rd July 1899 at Wrexham Register Office. John Richard Jones, 21 years, batchelor, Collier, Nant Bersham, Father's name Thomas, Occupation Collier. married Jane Hollywell, 20 years, Spinster, Nant Bersham, Father'name and occupation left blank Witnesses: Wm. Thos Hollywell and Sarah Jane Griffiths
Second Marriage 10th September 1906 at the Register Office Wrexham John Richard Jones, 28 years, Widower, Collier, 17 Nant Square Coedpoeth Bersham. Fathers Name Thomas Jones, Collier married Sarah Ellen Edwards, 24 years, Spinster, 6 Nant Square Coedpoeth Bersham. Fathers name William Edwards, Collier Witnesses Mathew Hy Evans and Elizabeth Evans.
Annette, you are correct John Richard was living at 5 Assembly Road at the time of the Census. His first wife Jane died of child birth problems in 1903. His first son Thomas died between 11-12 weeks old in 1901 (About the time of the census). Myfanwy married Trevor Parry, a farmer from Bwchgwyn and had several children and died 17 March 1976.
Brynybrain, you are also correct with the five children from his second marriage, Ernest was my father, but they also had three other children, Eveline 1913, Stanley and Thomas. They lived at 4 Griffith's Road in the Talwrn, (My Uncle Stan was still living there until the mid 60's when he moved to a modern house in Hoel Bryniog).
John Richard Jones died 30 May 1944 and was buried in Coedpoeth Cemetry, the stone on the grave gives his age as 67. If any of the ages given on census, gravestone or marriage certificates are correct he would have to be born between 1876 - 1878. I have looked through the NW BMD and found the following Jones John R Ruabon RBN/041/74 1877 Jones John R Wrexham WM/052/74 1877 Jones John Richard Wrexham WM/054/49 1878. I sent away for the birth certificate for John Richard Jones born 1878 It read Born 14 July 1878 Rhosnessney Acton, Name John Richard, Boy, Father's Name Thomas Jones Mother's name Mary Jones, late Morris, formely Jones. Father's occupation General Labourer, Informant Tho Jones,father, Rhosnessney Acton dated 30 July 1878.
This did not ring any bells, and a quick look on 1881 Census gave me Thomas Jones being born in Pennant, Montgomeryshire and occupation Miller's Waggoner. His wife Mary was born in Port Dinorwic. This was not the right family !!!
On checking through Free BMD I found the two John R Jones's born in 1877 one was a Robert the other was a Richard. I sent for the Birth Certificate for John Richard. It read Born 13 March 1877 Aberderfyn Ruabon, name John Richard, Boy, father's name Thomas, mother's name Sarah Jones formely Griffiths, Father's Occupation Coal Miner, Informant x Mark of Sarah Jones Mother Aberderfyn, Ruabon dated 16 April 1877.
I am not 100% convinced this is my Grand-father's birth certificate as it does not explain the connection to Richard Pritchard, but I would expect my g+grandfather to be a coal miner and looking up old maps Aberderfyn appears to be the lower part of Ponkey.
Thanks for all your help
midlandred
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Post by annedw on Feb 14, 2008 16:01:54 GMT
1861 Ponkey. Richard Pritchard 24 coal miner b Rhos. Ann Pritchard 28 b Pant. Edward Pritchard 16 brother. b Pant. Thomas Pritchard 7 b Ponkey William Pritchard 1 b Ponkey. I must admit so far I can`t find any link with Thomas and Sarah Jones and Richard Pritchard either. Maybe it goes further back than Thomas. Or perhaps they were not related at all. I`ve just had records of woman in 1851 aged 64 with 4 year old twin daughters. When they married they both put her husbands name as their father. It turned out they were her illegitimate grandchildren and not even twins at all, you can`t always rely on a census to be correct. ============================================= 1871 Richard Pritchard.Living in Ponkey. All born Ruabon Ann Pritchard 38 Richard Pritchard 33 Coal Miner Thomas Pritchard 17 " William Pritchard 11 Joseph Pritchard 7 John Pritchard 4 Elizabeth Pritchard 2 In the previous household there are these-- both born Ruabon Mary Pritchard widow 67 keeps house. Robert son 29 Pauper and collier 1881 Richard Pritchard Middle Road Nant. All born Ruabon All males are coal miners. Richard Pritchard 48 Ann Pritchard 50 William Pritchard 21 Joseph Pritchard 16 John Pritchard 14 Elizabeth Pritchard 12 Mary Pritchard 8 Richard Pritchard 6 Sarah Pritchard 5 In 1881 census I found Thomas Jones 27 coal miner born Ponkey Sarah Jones 25 wife born Ponkey John R Jones 4 a scholar born Ponkey. They are living at Chapel Street Ruabon. This looks like the birth certificate you have. Will have another look later. 1891OK, now this could be the same Thomas and Sarah but JR is not with them. Living in Australia Street. Ruabon. All born Rhos, language spoken Welsh. Thomas Jones 39 coal miner Sarah Jones 35 Thomas Jones 17 coal miner John Jones 16 coal miner Margaret Jones 9 Sarah Jones 5 Catherine Jones 2 William Jones 2/12 Banging me head on the wall now Just spotted John Jones aged 16 , is he the same as John R Jones in 1881, is so he can`t be in Assembly Road on the same night in 1891 . Aaaaaaaaargh.
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Post by brynybrain on Feb 14, 2008 18:08:28 GMT
annedw, there is an Australia street in ponkey which was in the parish of ruabon in the 1800's Richard Pritchard and all his children were all born in Ponkey. brynybrain
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Post by annedw on Feb 14, 2008 22:27:56 GMT
LOOK AT THE DATES OF THE CHILDRENS BIRTHS AGAIN, They surely can`t be the children of Margaret, she would have only been 17 if she was the mother of Richard, so it looks like Thomas was married before, possibly to a Jones. I found all his children on IGI he`s named as the father but no mother named. There are now the Jones children born in between the dates of the Richards`s, and even then if Margaret was their mother she was only about 18 when Miriam was born.I can`t find the Jones`s on IGI. Confusing Eh I think the answer may lie in the parish registers. Luckily Ruabon transcripts go up to 1853, as long as they`re in there that is. The 1851 census of Moreton Above, shows Richard Living with his parents in Poukey Thomas Pritchard Head aged 38 Coal Miner born Ruabon Margaret Pritchard Wife aged 30 born Ruabon Richard Pritchard Son aged 13 Coal Miner William Pritchard Son aged 11 Coal Miner Joseph Pritchard Son aged 9 Edward Pritchard Son aged 7 David Pritchard Son aged 3 Miriam Jones Step-Daughter aged 12 Margaret Jones Step Daughter aged 9 William Jones Step-Son aged 8
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Post by annedw on Feb 15, 2008 15:31:19 GMT
TAKEN FROM WERN CHAPEL GRAVEYARD BOOK, NAME OF GRAVEOWNER AND POSITION OF PLOT.
Left hand side of path facing mountain ROW 8 GRAVE 1 Richard Pritchard Rhos
If there is a headstone it would be easy to find, it`s like a jungle but at least this time of year the foliage has died down. I have ancestors in row 5.
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Post by midlandred on Feb 16, 2008 0:11:06 GMT
Annette, thanks for your continual digging. I also found John Richard Jones on the 1881 Census in Chapel St and thought I had solved the problem, until I looked at the 1891 Census and found the entery of Thomas and Sarah Jones living in Australia St and included his sons Thomas age 17 (Where was he on the 1881 Census ) and John age 16. aaargh. Clutching at Straws I thought he might have been double counted, but the 1901 also shows John living with his parents. double aaargh. A contact on Genesreunited had Thomas Pritchard marrying twice. First Wife Sarah Wynne m 1839 at St Giles Parish Church Wrexham. Second Wife Margaret Jones (who had also been previously married, so I am not sure if "Jones" is her maiden name or married name). There is no date given for this marriage. Sarah Wynne's death was shown as 1848 and David Pritchard born 1848 is shown as Sarah and Thomas's son. I have not been able to confirm any of this but maybe Brynybrain knows something ? I am not sure where Chapel St is in Ruabon, but there is a Chapel St in Ponkey, can Brynybrain confirm if this was also included in the Ruabon Parish in 1881 ? Also in Chapel St on the 1881 Census is the following family Margaret Pritchard, Head, Widow Age 74, born Rhos Ruabon Robert Hewitt, Lodger, Married, Age 44, born Rhos Ruabon, Coal Miner Margaret Hewitt, Wife, Age 42, born Rhos Ruabon, Coal Miner's Wife David Pritchard, Son, Unmarried, Age 31, born Rhos Ruabon, Coal Miner Miriam Pritchard, Daughter, Unmarried, Age 25, born Rhos Ruabon, Coal Miner's Wife Elizabeth Pritchard, Daughter, Age 3, born Rhos Ruabon Margaret Pritchard, Daughter, Age 1, born Rhos Ruabon The 1891 Census shows David (43) and Miriam (33) being married with daughters Elizabeth (13) and Margaret (11) living Out of Chapel St. Looking on the-red-zone site for Wern Burials it is showing the following Pritchards. Richard Pritchard, Rhos Age 78, died 15 Jan 1862, buried 21 Jan 1862. Elizabeth Pritchard, Rhos Age 57, died 1 Mar 1857, buried 3 Mar 1857. Widow of John Pritchard (Joiner). So it does not look as if the grave in Wern is the same Richard Pritchard we are looking for as he was still alive on the 1891 Census. midlandred
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Post by brynybrain on Feb 17, 2008 10:34:25 GMT
MIDLANDRED. I HAVE JUST BEEN IN TOUCH WITH A CONTACT FROM LANCS WHO IS A GG GRANDSON OF MARGARET PRITCHARD [ JONES]. HE SAYS THAT MARGARET MARRIED THOMAS AT LLANFYLLIN in 1846.Miriam Jones her daughter married Joseph Parry and lived in Jones st, Rhos. she died in 1924 and was buried in rhos cemetry. i hope this will help you brynybrain
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Post by midlandred on Mar 20, 2008 23:11:39 GMT
brynybrain, thanks for that information, not quite sure where it all fits in. Is David Pritchard (b 1848) the son of Thomas and Margaret ?
Annette, Thomas and Sarah living in Australia Street in 1891 are not my relatives, as I have found this couple on the 1881 Census living in Hanley Stoke-on-Trent Staffordshire (RG11/2719 Folio44 Pg25)
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Post by annedw on Jun 5, 2008 14:28:16 GMT
Wern graveyard. I found the grave and headstone of ` Richard Prtitchard. Rhosllanerchrugog 15 Jan 1862 age 79. Elizabeth Pritchard wife of the Richard Pritchard died April 18 1874 age 86. Any help
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Post by midlandred on Sept 22, 2008 18:09:17 GMT
Brynybrain, your information regarding contacts from Lancs reminded me about a conversation I had with my father, when he was alive. He said John Richard was known as John Richard Pritchard, because he was brought up by his grandfather, but he was unsure where he was born because John Richard's father had worked in the coal mines of Lancs. I have looked through the 1891 Census for Thomas Jones in Lancashire and although there were hundreds there was one of interest living in Ince-in-Makerfield, Wigan and born in Rhos Denbighshire. I have found out that this Thomas Jones married Louisa Griffiths in Wigan in 1890. I believe John Richard's father married Sarah Griffiths in Ruabon in 1873. I have sent for and received both marriage certificates.
Wrexham 11b Page 485 2nd Qtr 1873. Marriage at Ruabon Parish Church 26-Apr-1873 Thomas Jones, 20, Bachelor, Collier, Ponkey, Father's name Isaac Jones, Collier. Sarah Griffiths, 19, Spinster, Ponkey, father's name John Griffiths, Labourer.
Wigan 8c Page 66 2nd Qtr 1890. Marriage at St Mary's Ince-in Makerfield 24-May-1890 Thomas Jones, 33, Widower, Collier, Margaret St, Father's name Isaac Jones, Labourer (Deceased) Louisa Griffiths, 23, Spinster, Margaret St, Father's name Henry Griffiths, Collier (Deceased).
Although the 1891 Census has Louisa being born in Thornley County Durham (another mining community). The 1871 census RG10/3737 Folio 19 Pg 34 shows her living at the Halfway Inn, Caergwrle and her father Henry as a Collier and Publican. Also the 1901 Census RG13/5219 Folio 84 Pg 23 shows Thomas and Louisa living at 12 Hoel Penyfelin in the Parish of St Mary's Minera. With the following Children Isaac Jones, Age 10, born Ince Lancashire Harriet A Jones, Age 7, born Ince Lancashire, Thomas Jones, Age 5, born Ince Lancashire Barbara Jones, Age 1 born Bersham
I would be interested if anybody on this list recognises this family or has any information on Thomas's father Isaac Jones. I have found an Isaac Jones living in the Talwrn 1881 and Adwy 1871, but his occupation is Colliery Manager, and there is no trace of any children, although he does have a nephew aged 17 living with in 1871 named Rob't PRITCHARD, and a Niece in 1881 named Winifred E PRITCHARD.
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Post by tominera on Sept 23, 2008 22:04:26 GMT
Hi, This may help---John Richard Jones aged 67 yrs buried 3 6 1944 in plot no 938 in Coedpoeth Cemetery, also Sarah E Jones aged 63 yrs buried 12 2 1946 in same plot. There are two more burials in the same plot which may be connected or not. I do not think there is a headstone but I could be wrong as it may have a kerbstone. Good Luck, bye Tom
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Post by midlandred on Sept 24, 2008 22:48:41 GMT
Hi tominera, thanks for that information especially the plot no. I use to visit the grave in the '50's with my mum and dad, but believed that it was only my Nain and Taid buried there. I did revisit it several years ago and it has got the following inscription on the kerbstone. "Sarah Ellen Jones 7-Feb-1946 age 63" and "John Richard Jones, 4 Griffiths Road Talwrn, 30-May-1944 Age 67. There is no mention of anybody else being buried there.
If there are two more burials at this plot I would suspect it was John Richard's son Thomas, who died in 1901, and his first wife Jane (nee Hollywell) who died in 1903. Is there any way this can be confirmed?
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Post by tominera on Sept 25, 2008 16:55:54 GMT
Hi, The other two names in the burial reg. for this plot are Melville WILLIAMS aged 8 months buried 27 2 1951 Nancy WILLIAMS aged 61 years 11 6 1987 (cremated remains) --so date may refer to her death or when the ashes were int. I am sorry but I have not seen the grave and I cannot help you with that side of it but I have a pretty comprehensive database on Coedpoeth cemetery which I am always happy to add actual dates of death or burials to it if any one has their own facts. I am only too happy to share any info with anyone on this site should it help them find a relative/ancestor etc Kind Regards, Tom
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Post by tominera on Sept 25, 2008 17:26:15 GMT
HI, A wee bit more--There is a pic of the grave on Lee Wettons site no 9866 and apparently Nancy,s husband Harold WILLIAMS 1926-1997 is there as well, must go, bye Tom.
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Post by midlandred on Sept 25, 2008 20:39:38 GMT
Hi, thanks for that further information, Nancy was the youngest daughter of John Richard Jones. Harold and Nancy were my God-parents, but I had not realised their ashes were interred at the grave. The information I have. Nancy Williams died 3 June 1987 age 61 and cremated at Pentrebychan 8 June 1987. Harold Williams died 9 May 1997 age 70 and cremated at Pentrebychan 15 May 1997
Looking at Lee's pic of the Grave the kerbstone looks as if it has been renewed.
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Post by trosew on Sept 28, 2008 15:43:55 GMT
Hi Midlandred, Are you the eldest in your family with a birthday in Feb. I'm your cousin born Nov. exactly 3 months before you. I am also searching for John Richard and Sarah Ellen but coming up with similar problems. Hope to hear from you soon.
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Post by midlandred on Sept 28, 2008 16:43:42 GMT
Hi J, no I am not the eldest, but I am your cousin. Can you confirm John Richard Jones birthday? As I have a birth certificate with the date 13-March-1877, but I would like to confirm I have the correct JRJ.
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Post by trosew on Sept 29, 2008 12:33:17 GMT
Sorry, can't confirm dates at this stage. I'm not sure if its actually on the gravestone, I'll check next time I go home. I spoke to my mum today. She remembers the Jones relatives all living in the Bersham area. My parents used to visit a cousin of our Dads named Blodwyn. She still sees Blodwyns daughter, Iris, sometimes. Mum also sees Jean [Myfanwys daughter] quite often. She's going to get her phone number. Jean may have photos or memories as Myfanwy was very close to Jones aunties and uncles [JRJ siblings]. I have JR in Assembly Rd and Griffiths Rd but not much else. I have been working more on Sarah Ellens family but am having trouble finding her mother. In 1881,her dad William Edwards was single aged 21 and living in Nant Rd with his mother Ellin Davies[she married twice]. By 1891, he was a widower with 3 daughters. Will mothers maiden name appear on Sarah Ellens birth certificate? I'm not sure. P.S. Are you next eldest.
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Post by midlandred on Sept 29, 2008 22:02:05 GMT
Hi J, I am the next eldest. I did send you a message explaining and also info on Sarah Ellen. I have talked to my brother and he said there were no Birth dates on the grave. My mum had many dates in her birthday book but JR's was not one of them, but she did have Sarah Ellen's as 3-Dec-1882, so I was able to get a copy of her Birth Certificate. It was recorded 1st Qtr 1883 at Wrexham Vol 11b Pg 283. Born 3-Dec-1882, Nant Bersham, Father William, occupation Collier, mother Sarah Edwards, formely Williams. (William marked with a X). William and Sarah married on 4 Feb 1882 at the Parish Church Wrexam recorded 1st Qtr 1882 Wrexham 11b Pg 349. William Edwards, Age 23, Bachelor, Collier, Coedpoeth, Father's name William, occupation miner. Sarah Williams, Age 20, Spinster, Bersham, there is no information for father. Both signed with X The witnesses were Daniel Williams and Ann Roberts (Ann signed with X)
Like you I have found JR on the 1901 Census living at 5 Assembly Rd with his 1st Wife Jane (Hollywell) who was Auntie Myfanwy's mother. Did you notice in No6 Assembley Road there was a William Thomas Holywell living with his mother. William Thomas Hollywell appeared as a witness on John Richard's marriage certificate to Jane. I have no idea who Blodwyn is as I never heard my dad mention that name but would be interested to find out how she is related, also if you find out the names of JRJ's siblings.
Keep in touch
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Post by midlandred on Nov 12, 2015 0:13:14 GMT
The Brick wall I hit with John Richard Jones is just starting to crumble. The 1939 Register, which has just been released on Findmypast has John Richard Jones living at 4 Griffiths Road, as an unemployed Miner, but it also has his date of birth as 13 March 1877. Now I am 100% certain that I have the correct Birth Certificate
Born 13 March 1877 Aberderfyn Ruabon, name John Richard, Boy, father's name Thomas, mother's name Sarah Jones formely Griffiths, Father's Occupation Coal Miner, Informant x Mark of Sarah Jones Mother Aberderfyn, Ruabon dated 16 April 1877.
I also have a Marriage certificate for Thomas Jones and Sarah Griffiths
Wrexham 11b Page 485 2nd Qtr 1873. Marriage at Ruabon Parish Church 26-Apr-1873 Thomas Jones, 20, Bachelor, Collier, Ponkey, Father's name Isaac Jones, Collier. Sarah Griffiths, 19, Spinster, Ponkey, father's name John Griffiths, Labourer.
The 1881 Census entry found by Annette looks as if it is the correct one Thomas Jones 27 coal miner born Ponkey Sarah Jones 25 wife born Ponkey John R Jones 4 a scholar born Ponkey. They are living at Chapel Street Rhos
I still have not found a connection with the Pritchards but there is an interesting marriage of an Isaac Jones and Mary Pritchard 3rd qtr 1853 Wrexham 11b pg423
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Post by midlandred on Nov 30, 2015 20:27:12 GMT
I have spent a few days looking through parish registers for any marriage of Isaac Jones around 1854 (Thomas Jones birth year if the 1881 census could be believed). One stood out Ruabon 22 May 1854 Page 179 No.357 Isaac Jones, Age 23, Bachelor, Collier, abode: Aberderfyn, Father John Jones, Labourer married Ann Davies, Age 30, Spinster, abode: Aberderfyn, Father Thomas Davies, Labourer
I know Ann is a common name but is this the connection ?
Back to the parish registers to find out when Richard Pritchard got married. Eventually if found the following Ruabon 10th December 1859 Page 119 No. 238 Richard Pritchard, Age 22, Bachelor, Collier, Aberderfyn, Father Thomas Pritchard, Collier married Ann Davies, Age 25, Widow, Servant, Aberderfyn, Father Thomas Davies, Engineer
This family appeared in the 1861 Census ( as Annette said nearly 8 years Ago !!!) 1861 Ponkey. Richard Pritchard 24 coal miner b Rhos. Ann Pritchard 28 b Pant. Edward Pritchard 16 brother. b Pant. Thomas Pritchard 7 b Ponkey William Pritchard 1 b Ponkey.
Although Richard & Ann were only married for less than 2 years it shows Thomas Pritchard as being 7, The exact age Thomas Jones would have been.
I have looked through Ancestry & FMP over the last 8 years and I have not found a Thomas Jones that matches in the 1861 or 1871 and no trace of an Isaac Jones that fits in exactly.
In the 1891 Census my Taid John Rich Jones is living with Richard & Ann, described as Grandson. My father always said his dad was brought up by his grand parents.
Richard Pritchard not only brought up my taid as his grandson, but he also brought up my great-grandfather as his own son. I have much respect for him as he was the male role model for two generations of my family.
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