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Post by scouser on Sept 28, 2008 10:53:04 GMT
Scouser, we know that Abraham and Mordecai are sons of Sarah and Moses, what about Isaac and Jacob. Why would they wait all that time before marrying in May 5 1905 . Was it because of the strict Jewish rules , did Sarah have to go through a long period of ` conversion` to that religion. I know absolutely nothing about this and am just curious to the reason. Almost correct. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were born before they married. The following is from my family tree database notes: Marriage, according to Judaism, is legal if one out of the following three conditions have been met: 1. Chupa (The ceremony of wedding) 2. Beila (proven consensual sexual relationship) 3. Kinian (property shared or earned or given) Sarah and Moses were married at the Hope Street Synagogue in Liverpool and where married by Chupa by the late Rabbi Abraham Rutkowski. Since they had already given birth to three children, they where also married by Beila. They had already jointly occupied (and possibly owned) 44 Princess street, Wrexham for aproximately seven years at the time they married, thus they where also married by Kinian. This means that on all three counts of Jewish Marital Law, they were legaly married according to Judaism. According to my mum, Sarah kept a meticulously kosher home and embraced the Jewish religion strictly. She is certain that Sarah, if not born Jewsih, eventually bacame jewish (megiad) via the Beth Din. This may have been the reason why Sarah and Moses put off their marriage until 1905. Sarah may have studied to become Jewish first. Births Mar 1899 LEVENSHON Abraham Wrexham Births Dec 1901 Levenshon Isaac Wrexham Births Mar 1905 Levenshon Jacob Wrexham Births Jun 1906 Levensohon Mordecai Mendel Wrexham Births Dec 1907 LEVENSOHON Leah Wrexham That's my family! Mordecai was my grandfather. Deaths Sep 1892 Levensohon Leah 19 Wrexham If you look on the 1891 cencus you will see Leah listed with Moses. She was his sister and she died the year after the cencus in 1892 from TB.
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Post by scouser on Sept 28, 2008 10:56:33 GMT
Interesting! Thanks for the link. I cant see anything in the list that relates to my family. However, interestingly I do know that Moses did have a relation who lived in Swansea but not sure who. The family think it was another sister but not certain. Coincidentally, there is another Moses Levenshon (sic) in Swansea at the same time My Moses lived in Wrexham. I found him in the 1891 cencus and it confused me at the time
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Post by llosgi calch on Sept 28, 2008 10:58:24 GMT
...I think it's about time I paid Coedpoeth a visit again. Can you tell me where the cemetery is located? I will lookup the council office. Many thanks again for your comments. Extremely interesting stuff. welcome to the boards scouser Visit www.clwyd-mi.co.uk/html/coedpoeth.htmland click graveyard location.
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Post by scouser on Sept 28, 2008 17:33:19 GMT
Ah yes, I did see that when I visited Lee's site. I'll try and take a visut this week.
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Post by annedw on Sept 28, 2008 18:02:51 GMT
Sceptrelady found this.
think this is him in 1871 Adwyr clawdd Evan Roberts, 65, coal miner, born BALA Merioneth Ann Roberts, age 76, wife, born Talwrn
Have also found a baptism for an Alice ROBERTS, born 05/07/1835, baptized 12/-7/1835 father Evan Roberts (lab), mother Ann (mpn Evans) Ty Newydd r Hafod Wen, Llanfihangel PSH Now at the marriage of John and Alice in 1856 one witness was Margaret Roberts. But was she a sister and to who ? This is the only one I found living in Bersham, sadly not at home, but wasn`t Evan living in Rhosberse Road at some time. or am I clutching at straws.
1851 Rhosberse Road Margaret Roberts unm servant aged 15 born Bala. Merioneth. Could she be a sister to Alice born a little later.
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Post by sceptrelady on Sept 29, 2008 17:47:35 GMT
1) Have had another look at the Blackwell Index. Specifically at the same chapel records where I found Alice Roberts 1835 (Cerrigrudion Capel tyn Rhyd Calvinistic Methodist)
There are what looks to be two siblings: Owen ROBERTS 16.1.1830 Evan ROBERTS 19.4.1837
These don't match up with the 1851 at all - particularly Mary age 21 in 1851. No sign of a Margaret Roberts to Evan R & Anne Evans.
2) Alice Roberts nee Roberts keeps saying she was born in Bersham/Wrexham etc. Is it possible for the 1841 census to be checked please llosgi? Possibly the family was living in the town of Wrexham at that time?
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Post by scouser on Sept 29, 2008 23:18:32 GMT
Hmmm.... Just reading back through the thread.
Here is what I makeof it so far for Alice & John's and family:
1851 cencus, Bosgriffith, Arddynwent Llanferras, Denbighshire (pre marriage to Alice) John Roberts, 22, Out Door Servant, Denbigh Llanferas
1861 cencus, Penny Gelle Road, Bersham John Roberts, 30, Coalminer, Flintshire Alice Roberts, 25, wife, Denbighsh, Wrexham Catherine Roberts, 4, Scholar, , Denbighsh, Wrexham William Roberts, 2, -, , Denbighsh, Wrexham
1871 cencus. Penygelli, Bersham, Minera John Roberts 43, Coal miner, Denbigh, Llanfera (likely Llanferras Flints) Alice Roberts 35, -, Denbigh, Bersham William Roberts 12, Labourer, Denbigh, Bersham Mary Roberts 9, Scholar, Denbigh, Bersham John Roberts 5, Scholar, Denbigh, Bersham Robert Roberts 3, Scholar, Denbigh, Bersham Margaret Roberts 1, -, Denbigh, Bersham
1881 Tudor Row , Nant Road, Bersham, Wrexham, Minera John Roberts 53, Coal miner, Flintshire Alice Roberts 44, wife, Denbysh, Adwyclawdd William Roberts 22, Coal miner, , Denbysh, Penny Gelle John Roberts 15, Coal miner, Denbysh, Penny Gelle Robert Roberts 14, Coal miner, Denbysh, Penny Gelle Margt. Anne Roberts 11, Scholar, Denbysh, Penny Gelle Alice Selina Roberts 9, Scholar, Denbysh, Bersham Sarah Roberts 7, Scholar, Denbysh, Bersham George Roberts 3, -, Denbysh, Bersham
1891 cencus Tudor St Coedpoeth, Bersham, Wrexham, Minera John Roberts 60, Coal miner, Flintsh, Maeshafn. Alice Roberts 54, -. Denbigh, Adwyclawdd Robert Roberts, 23, Coal miner, Denbigh, Pennygelli Sarah Roberts 18, -, Denbigh, Bersham George Roberts 13, -, Denbigh, Bersham John Charles Roberts, 4 grand child, -, Denbigh, Bersham Mary Elizabeth Roberts, 3 grand child, -, Denbigh, Bersham
Residences: 1841 cencus for this area doesn`t exist . 1851 cencus, Bosgriffith, Arddynwent Llanferras, Denbighshire 1861 cencus Penny Gelle Road, Bersham 1871 cencus Penygelli, Bersham, Minera 1881 cencus Tudor Row , Nant Road, Bersham, Wrexham, Minera 1891 cencus Tudor St Coedpoeth, Bersham, Denbigh
But annedw commented: This thing about John Roberts place of birth has been bugging me. He is born Maeshafn , Flints , and Llanfere ?, Denbs. I think this should be Llanferres which is about 1 mile from Maeshafn. They are about 4 miles from Mold which IS in Flints, but the two places Maeshafn and Llanferres are in Denbs. So which is correct? Are they in Denbs or Flints?
Heather, I think your correct on this. Looking back at these cencus' Alice was born in Bersham/Wrexham. But I thought the 1841 was lost?
Also can you elaborate on what you mean: Have had another look at the Blackwell Index. Specifically at the same chapel records where I found Alice Roberts 1835 (Cerrigrudion Capel tyn Rhyd Calvinistic Methodist)
What is the Blackwell index? Also, where and what is Cerrigrudion Capel tyn Rhyd Calvinistic Methodist. I presume its a nonconform church but is it in the Wrexham area?
I am still going through the Evan/Ann records. Something isn't adding up or I missed something. I am trying to coroborate the cencus records I have and I am a tad confused with it all. I think the poblem is that I am working from 1851 upwards rather than 1891 backwards if you know what I mean. Also since I dont know the area and/or place names I am losing the plot. Here is what I have for Evan, Alice's father:
Evan is a Widower in the 1851 cencus He is married to ann in 1861 cencus He is single again in 1871 cencus and registered as a pauper.
1851 cencus Adwyr Clawdd, Bersham Evan Roberts widower 44, Laborer, Denbighshire, Llanichenydd Mary Roberts 21, Servant, Denbighshire, Llangar John Roberts 17, Collier, Denbighshire, Llangar Alice Roberts 14, Collier, Denbighshire, Wrexham Catherine Roberts 10, Home, Denbighshire, Wrexham Hugh Roberts 5, -, Denbighshire, Wrexham
1861 Evan has remarried and is living in Rhosberse Street , Evan Roberts 54 collier b Llantisiio Ann Roberts wife 59 b Wrexham Hugh Roberts son 15 labourer agricultural b Wrexham.
But Evan was born in Llanichenydd in 1851 and Llantisiio in 1861 and if annedw is correct, in BALA Merioneth in 1871
Also I think: Evan Roberts, 65, coal miner, born BALA Merioneth Ann Roberts, age 76, wife, born Talwrn
is not him as the age difference between Evan and Ann is too great.
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Post by scouser on Sept 29, 2008 23:27:14 GMT
Also: These don't match up with the 1851 at all - particularly Mary age 21 in 1851. No sign of a Margaret Roberts to Evan R & Anne Evans.
where did you pickup the evans from as a matter of interest?
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Post by sceptrelady on Sept 30, 2008 2:15:36 GMT
Hi scouser The Blackwell Index CD is a list of Non-conformist Baptisms for Denbighshire published by the Clwyd FHS. It is where I found the Alice Roberts 1835 baptism parents father Evan Roberts mother Ann Evans from Llanfihangel Parish. I think she may be a red herring - because the siblings don't appear to match. Re the transcription for place of Evans Roberts birth. There doesn't appear to be any such place as "Llanichenydd". If you look at the blow up of the actual census image it could possibly be a number of places including Llanfihangel much closer to Cerrigdrudion/Bala/Llantysilio etc. than Wrexham. Suggest you go on the www.genuki.org.uk website for Denbighshire for help with resources and locations. You can find lists of parishes & other resources on there, including multi-maps /satellite pics for most locations. You also need to keep in mind that the boundaries of the county of Denbighshire have moved/morphed/changed over the years - hence some places close to the borders of Flintshire and Merioneth did change hands so to speak. The town of Wrexham census of 1841 is in existence. Found in a junk shop several years ago and rescued for posterity ;D Our llosgi has a copy. Heather
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Post by annedw on Oct 1, 2008 17:28:38 GMT
The only thing in the papers was an announcement of the death of John Roberts agd 62 of Nant Road, after a short illness. No details of family and no obituary in later issues. So there`s still no clues to link Sarah.
Llanferres , for some reason and I don`t know why, the PRs on micro fiche stop at c 1790. They must exist somewhere. OK found them on Genuki They may be viewed on microfilm at the Denbighshire ( Ruthin ) and Flintshire( Hawarden) Record Offices Baptisms 1586 - 1945 Marriages 1588 - 1990 Burials 1587 - 1997
I had a look in Mold because I didn`t know about the above info, and found one 1835 Sept 6 John Roberts s/o William and Mary. Labourer, Pont Terwyl. ( No idea where that is ). I wouldn`t bank on it being John, best to check out Llanferres first. Up to 1790 there wern`t that many Roberts`s in the registers.
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