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Post by paroberts on Oct 1, 2008 12:27:24 GMT
JOHN ROBERTS PREV.OF LLANGYNOG, BORN 1875/6 MARRIED SARAH MORRIS ( OF MINERA , IN 1902 , IF WE HAVE THE CORRECT MARR.CERT}.HE WAS KILLED IN AN ACCIDENT,WE THINK IN A SLATE QUARRY,IN JAN.1911 AGED 36.THEY HAD BEEN LIVING IN FRONDEG .THE GRAVE IS IN A RUINED CEMETARY,MAY HAVE BEEN A WELSH CHAPEL BUT NOT EXISTING FOR AT LEAST 30 YEARS-COULD BE WERN???THEIR DAUGHTER ETHEL WAS ALSO BURIED THERE IN 1930(SAME GRAVE)THE HEADSTONE WAS IN WELSH.
SARAH RE-MARRIED IN 1912 (LEWIS ROBERTS) AND LIVED IN TANYFRON. DOES ANYONE HAVE INFO.TO SHARE REGARDING THESE PEOPLE?
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Post by annedw on Oct 1, 2008 17:56:02 GMT
www.tom-mercer-mi-indexes.org.uk/Wern,%20Bersham.htm Hi Paroberts, it sounds like Wern , very overgrown. This link is to Tom Mercers site, there are some similer name in there, if you contact Tom, I`m sure he will give you more details. Obviously there will be a headstone. You may find an inquest report in the Wrexham Advertizer, copies in A N Palmer Wrexham on microfilm. Have a look at Parish Records online, from the home page of this site, loads of Morris`s bapt and buried in Wern
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Post by paroberts on Oct 2, 2008 13:45:04 GMT
THANKS-BUT NO JOY SO FAR-THE PARISH RECORDS ONLY SEEM TO GO TO 1899,OR AM I DOING SOMETHING WRONG? HOW DO I ACCESS THE A N PALMER INFO? PAULINE (SOUTH AFRICA)
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Post by annedw on Oct 2, 2008 14:00:46 GMT
Hi Pauline, I didn`t realise you were in SA. I helped transcribe the Wern records and they are all there are available. So after 1899 we`re stuck. You can`t access A N Palmer centres records online. It`s`only small museum. Am sending you a PM.
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Post by annedw on Oct 7, 2008 15:28:16 GMT
Wrexham Advertizer 1911 Feb 14. Inquest in to the death of John Roberts aged 35 of Bryn Twyfol Frondeg. This is a very brief version with only the important details. A witness was Edwin Morris of Brymbo, father in law. John was working on the Gronwen road diversion at Bronwyllfa, a fall of earth landed on him and badly fractured his leg, he was taken to Wrexham Infirmary about 4 pm his leg was amputated but he ded at about 7.20 pm the same day. I have sent you a PM.
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Post by annedw on Oct 8, 2008 14:20:16 GMT
Do you have more details on John and Sarah, from the marriage cert, What were their ages , did they have occuptions , name of the father and his occupation, place of abode, names of wittnesses.etc. There are a couple of possible Sarahs, but I need her age to check her out. John Roberts , we really need his fathers name and occ.
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Post by paroberts on Oct 9, 2008 13:03:07 GMT
THAT INFO.CLARIFIES A LOT! I HAD BEEN VERY CONFUSED ABOUT SARAH'S BIRTHDATE AS HER GRAVE IN TANYFRON HAS HER AS AGE 68 WHEN SHE DIED IN NOV.1950-SO WORKING BACKWARDS I WAS SEEKING HER BIRTHDATE ABOUT 1882.-BUT-THE MARR.CERT.I OBTAINED PUT HER AS AGE 23 ( MAY 1902),& SO BORN ABOUT 1879 AND I COULDN'T UNDERSTAND THE TIME DIFFERENCE.ANYWAY SHE SEEMS TO BE THE RIGHT ONE AS HER FATHER IS STATED AS EDWIN MORRIS,LEAD MINER,TANYGRAIG MINERA.SHE M. JOHN ROBERTS AGE 27, LEAD MINER.NEW BRIGHTON MINERA (FATHER UNKNOWN, IT SEEMS). THAT WAS ANOTHER PUZZLE AS I THOUGHT I'D FOUND HIM ON THE 1901CENSUS AS A ROADWORKER LODGING IN MANCHESTER,BUT DISMISSED THIS AS WE ALWAYS BELIEVED HE'D BEEN KILLED IN A SLATE QUARRY. NOW IT'STARTING TO COME TOGETHER ! I FOUND A SARAH MORRIS ON THE1881 CENSUS AS A 7 MONTH OLD BABY DAU. OF EDWIN MORRIS AND MARY,AT ASSEMBLY ROOM RD.BERSHAM,BUT HE WAS LISTED AS A COAL MINER,SO WASN' T SURE IF THIS WAS THE RIGT ONE EITHER. TO CONFUSE MATTERS EVEN MORE-SARAH'S 2nd MARR.TO LEWIS ROBERTS IN OCT.1912 LISTED HER FATHER AS EDWARD NOT EDWIN,LEAD MINER. SARAH WAS LISTED AS WIDOW AGE 31. IT LOOK AS IF JOHN AND EDWIN WERE BOTH WORKING ON THE ROADS,MAYBE NOT ABLE TO GET WORK IN THE LEAD MINES. I HAVE BEEN IN TOUCH WITH THE RCORDS OFFICE AND THEY WILL BE E-MAILING SCANS OF THE INQUEST DOCUMENTS TO ME,SO I AM HOPING THERE MAY BE MORE INFO.THERE THAT I CAN TIE IN WITH. I REALLY WANT TO SEE IF THERE IS A WAY TO FIND JOHN'S FAMILY IN LLANGYNOG
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Post by annedw on Oct 9, 2008 17:11:38 GMT
Just to add to Pa`s work, 1881 Assembly Road Coedpoeth. Edwin Morris 24 coal miner b Minera Mary wife 24 b Minera Sarah 7 mth b Minera. Guess who`s on the next entry in High Street. John Carrington 51 fireman b Bersham Ok Pa , it`s a private joke with Sceptrelady ;D ;D From the 1891 census we can see that Edwin and Mary must have moved away and back again between 1881 and about 1886 as Robert was born in Durham about 1883 and Edith in Minera about 1886. There were many mines in that area, and lot of people moved to follow the work. 1891 Cae Newydd, Esclusham Above. Edwin Morris 34 leadminer b Minera Mary wife 34 b Minera Sarah dau 10 scholar b Minera Robert w son 8 b Durham NK. ( not known) Edith dau 5 b Minera Selina dau 3 b Minera James Edwards servent 16 farm servant b Minera. 1901 Tan Y Graig Minera Edwin Morris 42 lead miner Mary wife 42 Robert W son 17 lead mine labourer b Cumberland NK Edith dau 15 Selina dau 13 Stephen son b Minera. Sarahs not there but I think this is her living in the National Bank, Hope St Wrexham. 1901 National Bank Thomas Ll Powell 39 Bank cashier b Newcastle Emlyn Cards. Wife and two daughters. Sarah Morris 20 cook domestic, b Wrexham Emily M Edwards 15 servant domestic b Wrexham. I think this is John in 1901 , he`s more likely to have met Sarah living in this area, than John living in Manchester. They are both born Llangynog though. 1901 New Brighton. Jane Davies head widow 50 b Minera John Thomas single boarder 34 leadminer b Minera John Roberts single boarder 25 leadminer b Llangynog. Denbs.
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Post by paroberts on Oct 10, 2008 7:06:25 GMT
THAT ALL TIES IN WITH WHAT I'D THOUGHT BUT I HAD A FEW OTHER STRAY LEADS-I.E. A ROBERT WILLIAMS MORRIS BORN IN RUTHIN 1882,SO WASN'T SURE IF IWAS ONTO THE RIGHT FAMILY WITH THE ROBERT BORN IN CUMBERLAND. I ALSO THOUGHT JOHN ROBERTS WAS LODGING WITH JANE DAVIES IN MINERA IN 1901 UNTIL I GOT THE M.CERT.FOR JOHN & SARAH (WHICH I WASN'T SURE OF).ONE OF THE WITNESSES WAS J.EDGAR SAVAGE,WHO I ASSUMED TO BE A PERSONAL FRIEND (HE RESIDED AT THE WERN SHOP).I THEN NOTICED HIS NAME AS THE CENSUS ENUMERATOR (1901 I THINK IT WAS).WHEN I SEARCHED FOR HIM IN COJUNCTION WITH JOHN ROBERTS I CAME ACROSS THE MANCHESTER ENTRY WITH A JOHN ROBERTS FROM LLANGYNOG AND 2 PEOPLE WITH THE NAME SAVAGE ON THE SAME ENTRY!THAT IS WHERE I REALIZED HE MAY HAVE BEEN WORKING ON THE ROADS INSTEAD OF AS A LEAD MINER .COINCIDENCE?? WHO SAID IT WOULD BE EASY? ANOTHER PONDERABLE!-I FOUND A JOHN ROBERTS BORN IN LLANGYNOG 1874,WORKING AS A WAGGONER AT TY MAWR FARM ON 1891 CENSUS AND GUESS WHAT?-WORKING FOR A FAMILY NAMED MORRIS!-MAY HAVE BEEN RELATAD TO HIS FUTURE IN-LAWS?? (MY HUSBAND'S (ALSO JOHN ROBERTS) FAMILY KNOWLEDGE WAS THAT HIS UNCLE IORWETH MORRIS FARMED IN LLANARMON YN IAL,AND HE AND HIS WIFE HAD BEEN TAKEN IN OR ADOPTED BY SARAH (NO IDEA OF DATES BUT LATER THAN THE PERIOD I'M LOOKING INTO. I GOT THE INQUEST DOCUMENTS ,BUT THEY DON'T GIVE ANY PERSONAL DETAILS OTHER THAN EDWIN BEING THE FATHER IN LAW.IN FACT THE INFO.YOU POSTED FROM THE ADVERTISER GAVE MORE DETAILS.JOHN & SARAH LIVED AT BRYN TYFOD FRONDEG PROBABLY FROM 1902 UNTIL HIS DEATH IN 1911. I AM HOPING THAT SOMEONE IN THE MORRIS FAMILY DESCENDANTS MAY HAVE A PHOTO OF JOHN-A WEDDING PHOTO OF JOHN AND SARAH WOULD BE TOO MUCH TO HOPE FOR! MY HUSBAND HAS NO PHOTOS OF HIS GRANDFATHER AND ONLY ONE OF SARAH IN LATER YEARS. PAULINE.
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Post by annedw on Oct 10, 2008 13:48:57 GMT
Just to make matters worse, there are two places named Llangynog, Llangynog Montgomeryshire Llangynog Carmarthenshire So John in 1901 living in New Brighton had Llangynog Denbigh, then this is wrong. The Savages in 1901 in Manchester seems to be father ( widower) and son , Father born Stafford and son born America. An odd coincidence though. Getting back to Edwin 1871 Red Lion Minera. Robert Morris 46 publican B Llanarmon Sarah Morris wife 45 ditto William Morris son 23 leadminer ditto Daniel Morris 19 leadwasher ditto Robert Morris 17 leadwasher ditto Edwin Morris 14 leadwasher b MineraEliza Morris 12 scholar b ditto Miriam Morris 9 b ditto Jesse Morris 5 b ditto Llewelyn Morris 4 b ditto Keziah Morris 2 b ditto This must be the same family, the names and ages match for the children , but are way out by ten years for parents, 1861 Pentre Minera. Robert Morris 55 leadminer b Flintshire Sarah Morris 55 b Llanferres William Morris 13 lead ore dresser b Llanferres Ann Morris 11 b ditto Daniel Morris 9 lead ore dresser b ditto Robert Morris 7 b ditto Edwin Morris 5 b Minera Eliza Morris 3 b Minera
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Post by paroberts on Oct 10, 2008 14:20:34 GMT
YES-IT'S ALL VERY CONFUSING.I DO KNOW THE JOHN ROBERTS I'M LOOKING FOR CAME FROM THE LLANGYNOG IN MONTGOMERY AS MY HUSBAND WAS TOLD THAT HIS FATHER'S FAMILY CAME FROM THE TANAT (IS .THAT HOW IT'S SPELT) VALLEY.
ON THE MORRIS SIDE,I THINK EDWIN HAD A SISTER WITH THE UNUSUAL NAME OF CAZIAH OR KEZIAH,AND HIS FATHER WAS ROBERT- A LEAD MINER AND A FARMER!-PRETTY SURE THIS IS THE SAME FAMILY LINE .THERE WAS A DANIEL. A LLEWELYN, & A MIRIAM AS WELL.MAYBE SOMEONE RECOGNISES THES NAMES.EDWIN WAS BORN AROUND 1857 IN MINERA BUT MOST OF THE OTHERS INLUDING THE PARENTS WERE FROM LLANARMON. PAULINE THAT HOW IT'S SPELT?) VALLEY
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Post by annedw on Oct 10, 2008 14:50:53 GMT
Take a look at Wern baptisms and burials , look for Parish records Online on the home page, Some of the children of Robert and Sarah nee Goodwin were baptised there, Miriam , Edwin, Kesiah, I know they rang a bell. ;D ;D ;D
I`m struggling now to find the Morris `s in 1851/41 I wish John was this easy to trace.
1901 Wern Shop Esclusham Above. Elizabeth Savage widow 63 shopkeeper b Ruabon Robert Daniel Savage son 26 shopkeeper b Rhos John Edgar Savage 24 son accountant b Rhos. Mary Thomas servant 15 b Minera.
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Post by eluned on Oct 10, 2008 15:21:12 GMT
Just to say I thought the address rang a bell. Edward Kelly and Miriam nee Morris lived at 44 Princess street too. I have them there between 1915-1923 but maybe earlier. Hi, Although not a close connection as I am researching the Kelly line and don't have much on Miriam but I think that she must be the one aged 9 in 1871. Not got much on the Morris' sorry. Edward Kelly was my greatgrandma's brother. The Kelly family were Wesleyan, which may help Edward and Miriam are buried in Ruabon Rd cemetery, Wrexham. 1881 Unsure if this is ditto for Rock Tavern Robert Morris Head Widr 52 leadminer + Farmer 14acres B.Llandegla Robert " son un 27 leadminer B.Llanarmon Miriam " daur un 19 housekeeper b.Minera Llewelyn " son 14 gen lab b.Minera Caziah " daur 12 b.Minera If you require any of the info I have on Miriam and Edward, please send me a PM.
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Post by annedw on Oct 10, 2008 15:23:09 GMT
Have we struck lucky - ish. 1881 Castle Inn St Llangynog Mont. John Roberts head wdower age 53 leadminer b Llangynog. Elizabeth Roberts 20 dau unm b Llangynog Robert Roberts 8 son b ditto John Roberts 5 grandson b ditto Is this the same family 1871 Fulling Mill Llangynog. John Roberts 45 ag lab b Llangynog Margaret Roberts wife 45 b Pennent Catharine Roberts dau 17 unm b Pennant Elizabeth Roberts dau 9 b Llanrhaidr John Roberts son 6 b Llangynog Anne Roberts dau 3 b ditto Jane Roberts dau 1 b ditto. Now I have a theory, which may or may not turn out to be right At his marriage John states father unknown, 1871 His grandad John has only one son John , who in 1876 would only be about 16 Catherine would be about 25, Elizabeth about 16. It`s possible John could have been illegitimate or maybe John had elder children Trouble is --- so many Roberts`s and I think I`m clutching at straws now.
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Post by eluned on Oct 10, 2008 15:34:25 GMT
Probably only a coincidence but my Gt Grandad John Jones, the gentleman on my profile photo and wife Hannah Kelly lived at Cae Newydd, Esclusham Above before moving to Coedpoeth ;D Interesting perhaps but totally irelevant ;D ;D ;D
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Post by paroberts on Oct 10, 2008 16:18:30 GMT
Have we struck lucky - ish. 1881 Castle Inn St Llangynog Mont. John Roberts head wdower age 53 leadminer b Llangynog. Elizabeth Roberts 20 dau unm b Llangynog Robert Roberts 8 son b ditto John Roberts 5 grandson b ditto UNFORTUNATATELY-THIS IS WHERE I STARTED! THERE'S ALSO A SEVEN YEAR OLD JOHN ROBERTS AS A BOARDER AT STRYT WEN, LLANGYNOG. PAULINE
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Post by paroberts on Oct 10, 2008 16:42:20 GMT
Take a look at Wern baptisms and burials , look for Parish records Online on the home page, Some of the children of Robert and Sarah nee Goodwin were baptised there, Miriam , Edwin, Kesiah, I know they rang a bell. ;D ;D ;D HOW DO I GET THERE-EVERY TIME ITRY PARISH RECORDS BAPTISMS,I HAVE TO SHUT DOWN THE COMPUTER PAULINE I`m struggling now to find the Morris `s in 1851/41 I wish John was this easy to trace. 1901 Wern Shop Esclusham Above. Elizabeth Savage widow 63 shopkeeper b Ruabon Robert Daniel Savage son 26 shopkeeper b Rhos John Edgar Savage 24 son accountant b Rhos. Mary Thomas servant 15 b Minera.
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Post by annedw on Oct 10, 2008 16:44:46 GMT
Ok got him in Llangynog, 1881 Simlier age, but place of borth different. John Roberts head 44 leadminer b Llangynog. wife and two young sons, also John Roberts 7 lodger, b Llanfyllin.
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Post by paroberts on Oct 10, 2008 16:49:00 GMT
Just to say I thought the address rang a bell. Edward Kelly and Miriam nee Morris lived at 44 Princess street too. I have them there between 1915-1923 but maybe earlier. Hi, Although not a close connection as I am researching the Kelly line and don't have much on Miriam but I think that she must be the one aged 9 in 1871. Not got much on the Morris' sorry. Edward Kelly was my greatgrandma's brother. The Kelly family were Wesleyan, which may help Edward and Miriam are buried in Ruabon Rd cemetery, Wrexham. 1881 Unsure if this is ditto for Rock Tavern Robert Morris Head Widr 52 leadminer + Farmer 14acres B.Llandegla Robert " son un 27 leadminer B.Llanarmon Miriam " daur un 19 housekeeper b.Minera Llewelyn " son 14 gen lab b.Minera Caziah " daur 12 b.Minera I 'M SURE THIS IS THE ONE.THANKS FOR THE OFFER OF INFO ON MIRIAM,CAN I PUT THAT ON HOLD FOR THE TIME BEING? I'M GETTING LOST IN THE THREADS! PAULINE If you require any of the info I have on Miriam and Edward, please send me a PM.
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Post by annedw on Oct 10, 2008 16:59:34 GMT
I have the same problem with the Wern site sometimes, I have sent you all the Bapt and Burials for Morris by email. Register transcribed starts at 1808 and end 1892 .
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Post by paroberts on Oct 10, 2008 19:05:21 GMT
WE ARE MAKING GREAT INROADS NOW. IT IS VERY INTERESTING TO FIND SARAH'S GRANDFATHER ROBERT AND SEE THAT HE 'D BEEN BORN IN LLANDEGLA & WAS PARTLY FARMING, BECAUSE THE IORWERTH & WENNA MORRIS (COUSINS), THAT SARAH TOOK IN ,WERE FARMING IN THAT AREA LATER ON (UP TO ABOUT 1948 OR SO) WE THINK THEY MAY HAVE BEEN HER SIBLINGS' CHILDREN. THE CONNECTIONS ARE DEFINITELY COMING TOGETHER.IORWERTH AND WENNA HAD A DAU. ETHEL AND SHE HAD A SON MAURICE I THINK. THEY LIVED IN WREXHAM. PAULINE
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Post by tominera on Oct 11, 2008 14:40:32 GMT
Hi, This may be useful--A burial in Southsea 21 11 1950 Sarah Roberts aged 68 Yrs of Argoed, Tanyfron. Plot 634 And an entry for the same plot Lewis Roberts aged 84 Yrs died 24 6 1961 no address-- Sorry but that is it but you may be able to develop from there. Good Luck Tom
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Post by paroberts on Oct 13, 2008 7:47:03 GMT
THANKS TOM,FOR THE EFFORT. WE DO HAVE THIS AND PHOTOS AS WELL OF THE FAMILY GRAVES,WHICH WE TOOK ON OUR VISIT TO UK IN 1995.WE ONLY HAVE ONE PHOTO OF SARAH & AND THAT IS WHEN SHE WAS ABOUT 63 AND TAID LEWIS ON THE PHOTO AS WELL.I THINK I NEED TO SEE THE RECORDS FROM CANA CHAPEL TO GET A LEAD ON THE MATERNAL SIDE OF THE FAMILT -ALSO ALL ROBERTS'. PAULINE
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Post by annedw on Oct 28, 2008 14:01:23 GMT
I have a copy now of the Newspaper report, and I made an error it`s Gronwen Road diversion at Bronwylfa not Corwen as I first thought. John was employed by the Wrexham Rural District Council at the time, and the only other useful personal info is that Edward Morris his father in law said as far as he knew John had no relatives in the country surely this must be `county`
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Post by paroberts on Oct 30, 2008 14:59:18 GMT
I also see it as Gronwen road, but I can't find it on GENUKI , or Bronwylfa either.Any idea whereby they are? That's something I didn't register - it probabably should read 'county' and then that would put a different angle on it,as John was from Montgomeryshire originally. I hope we can eventually get some info. on who his mother was at least,unless he was an orphan.I'm still waiting for the (guessed at ) birth cert.to arrive from the GRO. This is a real hard nut to crack! Thanks for all the help. Pauline
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Post by paroberts on Nov 9, 2008 13:31:55 GMT
I got the birth cert. I sent for. Unfortunately it's not ours. If anyone is needing this, it's for a John Roberts born in Llangyniew,son of William and Ann (Evans) Pauline
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Post by annedw on Dec 15, 2008 15:59:33 GMT
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Post by paroberts on Apr 16, 2009 8:34:31 GMT
THANKS FOR THE INFO.I,VE BEEN OFFLINE FOR SOME MONTHS NOW,BUT AM BACK,& STILL SEEKING.I'VE COME ACROSS REFERENCES TO A JOHN ROBERTS BORN IN LLANGYNOG,BUT HAVEN,T MANAGED TO FIND ANY BIRTH CERTS.SO CAN'T GO ANY FURTHER WITH THIS. PAULINE
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Post by tominera on Apr 17, 2009 17:46:41 GMT
Hi, I have just been looking at some pics I took on a rubbish (weather) day in Wern Cemetery earlier this year and I am certain ;D (Yes certain it is the one you are looking for) I am afraid it is not a marvellous picture but you are welcome to have a copy if you let me know your E.mail address in a PM. The stone is in very good condition and just maybe I could retake one of it if I could locate it again as the Cemetery is badly overgrown.--Tom.
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Post by paroberts on Apr 22, 2009 13:15:24 GMT
Thanks Tom, we'd appreciate a copy. W e did find the gravestone on our 1995 visit and jotted down the inscription-good job as the photo is not too clear.The grave was at the back near the grave diggers hut and was covered in brambles.I think the stone was face down on the ground. I feel stupid-I can't remember how to post a PM-i'll try,but annette has my Email address-can you get it from her if i don't figure this out before xmas?
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