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Post by tominera on Mar 3, 2010 20:08:58 GMT
Hi, I am putting this in here as mystery ancestor would not give me the option of starting a new thread in that section---maybe someone will move this to that section as this is a true mystery (possible) ancestor. I obtained these details from a funeral card which I received with lots of others which had been handed down a line of my wifes ancestors but Margaret remains a mystery which you all may help me resolve.- -It reads:- Margaret HUGHES--Summerhill (Formerly Uwchymynydd) died 5 2 1900 aged 79 years and was buried 8 2 1900 in Llanfynydd Cemetery. There is an entry in the Welsh magazine 'Y Cylchgrawn' which may help but I really do not know if this is the same person. Translation of the bare facts it contains is Mrs Margaret Hughes-Summerhill, brother of late John Thomas and she died in the home of her daughter Mr & Mrs Enoch Roberts--a memorial sevice will be held on the 25 3 1900 I would like to know if she was related to any of the Hughes's I already have Thanks Tom
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Post by eluned on Mar 3, 2010 21:40:10 GMT
Hi Tom, I'm a bit out of my comfort zone with place names but will give it my best shot! What about this one? 1871 Hope RG10/3737/64/4 John Hughes H mar 76 engine driver at coal mine Margaret Hughes wife 50 Elizabeth Hughes daur unm 16 All born Hope 1881 Uwchymynydd Ucha, Hope RG11/3567/12/19 Rhos Ganol John Hughes H mar 58 coal miner b.Hope Margaret Hughes wife 60 b."
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Post by eluned on Mar 3, 2010 21:45:07 GMT
Death reg. Wrexham Margaret Hughes Mar 1/4 1900 aged 79 The cert would probably say widow of so and so Have you been able to locate the grave?
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Post by tominera on Mar 3, 2010 22:34:51 GMT
Hi Thanks for that and I have now managed to read stone which does in fact give John Hughes died 20 2 1883 aged 58yrs (not a very good match with census) and confirms Margaret as his wife.- I have had another look at my attempt to translate and altered original post to say her brother John Thomas and not her husband. sorry for that. Tom
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Post by annedw on Mar 3, 2010 22:51:48 GMT
How about this one, ages match for John. Right area. 1851 HO107; Piece: 2502; Folio: 43; Page: 6; Nant Y Saison, Llanfynydd John Hughes 26 coal miner b Hope Margt Hughes 27 b Hope 1861 RG9; Piece: 4278; Folio: 7; Page: 20 Rhosmynhir, Next address Pen Street, rings a bell John Hughes 35 colliery engine driver b Hope. Margaret Hughes 38 b Mold . Sarah Hughes 9 dau b Hope Elizabeth Hughes 6 dau b Hope 1881 Rhos Ganol, Uchymynydd John Hughes 58 coal miner b Hope Margaret 60 b " Marriage St Giles Sept 1870 Enoch Roberts HUGHES Sarah / JONES Mary
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Post by eluned on Mar 4, 2010 8:38:51 GMT
How about this one, ages match for John. Right area. 1851 HO107; Piece: 2502; Folio: 43; Page: 6; Nant Y Saison, Llanfynydd John Hughes 26 coal miner b Hope Margt Hughes 27 b Hope 1861 RG9; Piece: 4278; Folio: 7; Page: 20 Rhosmynhir, Next address Pen Street, rings a bell John Hughes 35 colliery engine driver b Hope. Margaret Hughes 38 b Mold . Sarah Hughes 9 dau b Hope Elizabeth Hughes 6 dau b Hope 1881 Rhos Ganol, Uchymynydd John Hughes 58 coal miner b Hope Margaret 60 b " Marriage St Giles Sept 1870 Enoch Roberts HUGHES Sarah / JONES Mary Aren't these the same ones that I posted ;D I realise John's age looks way out in 1871 but perhaps that was an enumerators error
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Post by annedw on Mar 4, 2010 9:13:04 GMT
They are , yes, but 1861 has Sarah as well, by 1871 she is married to Enoch Roberts, we think. Your 1871 has Elizabeth , so that`s a good un ;D The trouble is , there seems to be now 2 John Hughes from the same area, both connected to Tom, and trying to sort them out - Marriage St Giles 27 Aug 1870 Enoch Roberts full age Ba. abode Broughton , Father Robert Roberts Collier. Sarah Hughes minor Sp. abode Broughton. Father John Hughes Collier. Both made their mark X Witts. Edward Hughes X Elizabeth Hughes X This seems to match what we have so far. 1891 RG12; Piece: 2870; Folio 120; Page 11 Ty Newydd Uchymynydd Ucha. Margret Hughes 70 pauper b Rhydy ain ??
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Post by annedw on Mar 4, 2010 15:04:40 GMT
Enoch isn`t quite sure where he was born, but it`s the same man all along, I`m sure of that. 1901 RG13; Piece: 5222; Folio: 23; Page: 17. Bottom Road Summerhill. Next property is Hirdir View, which I`m sure is still there. About 5 mins walk for me. Arsch ( Enoch) Roberts 52 collier b Brymbo Sarah Roberts 49 b Hope 1891 RG12; Piece: 2870; Folio 119; Page 10 Rhewl Farm Uwchymynydd Arthur Gaud 28 Ann Gaud 36 John Gaud 1/12 Evan Edwards 13 Enoch Roberts 45 lodger collier b Hope Sarrah Roberts 44 lodger b Hope Esarah Roberts 21 blacksmith b Hope.Next door at Plas Trimley is Joel Hughes, his family and his father John 68. This is the other John Hughes, belonging to Tom. 1881 RG11; Piece: 3567; Folio: 5; Page: 6 Frith . Enoch Roberts 33 coal miner b Bwlchgwyn Sarah Roberts 29 b Uwchymynydd Isiah Roberts 10 b Llanfynydd 1871 RG10; Piece: 3737; Folio: 70; Page: 16 Rhewl Llanfynydd Enoch Roberts 22 coal miner b Wrexham Sarah Roberts 20 b Hope Ezra Roberts 4mths b Hope
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Post by tominera on Mar 4, 2010 20:28:43 GMT
Hi, Thanks everyone for your input and my first thoughts are "What have I got myself into" Well I certainly have plenty to try and sort out and my first task is to try and establish a connection with John Hughes. Thanks again Toml
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Post by jojo on Mar 6, 2010 1:05:22 GMT
I have had another look at my attempt to translate and altered original post to say her brother John Thomas and not her husband. sorry for that. Tom Hi Tom Do you think this means that Margaret was a THOMAS as in sister of John THOMAS or does it mean Margaret's brother was a John Thomas HUGHES? Is anyone else confused or is it just me? ;D Another thought ... could Sarah's father John Hughes (the one who was buried in 1883 age 58) be the son of John Hughes & Hannah Challoner? According to North Wales BMD, Flintshire marriages between a John HUGHES and Margaret between 1841 and 1851 there are only four possibles 1849 Llanasa Ss Asaph & Cyndeyrn - Margaret HUGHES 1849 Holywell, Civil - Margaret PRICE 1851 Holywell, Civil - Margaret WILLIAMS 1851 Flint St. Mary - Margaret JONES or Hannah WILLIAMS Using Denbighshire as the criteria doesn't help much better because once again there are only four possibles. Two Ruabon subdistrict, one in Chirk and one at Bangor on Dee..... Heather
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Post by eluned on Mar 6, 2010 9:22:07 GMT
Hi Thanks for that and I have now managed to read stone which does in fact give John Hughes died 20 2 1883 aged 58yrs (not a very good match with census) and confirms Margaret as his wife.- I have had another look at my attempt to translate and altered original post to say her brother John Thomas and not her husband. sorry for that. Tom I didn't see this post, thank you Heather. I also puzzled over whether or not Thomas was a surname Tom, Probably best to use the strike through thingy ("s" with line through it) and this will then clearly show a post as been altered. eluned
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Post by annedw on Mar 6, 2010 14:57:31 GMT
Death. Mar qtr 1883 HUGHES John age 58 Chester 8a 305 . According to the info on Free BMD Hope was transferred from Wrexham district on 1.8.1871 and transferred to Hawarden district on 1.1.1903 Death Mar 1900 Hughes Margaret 79 Wrexham 11b 243 I was in Cefn this morning and had a look in Hayes marriage index. Wrexham, Gresford and Hope had no John Hughes marrying a Margaret anyname at all. I didn`t have time to stay and search anywhere else. I suppose if we find Sarah and Elizabeths baptisms there might be a clue there if they gave MM name, some do - some don`t unless they were Chapel by that time. Free BMD has a Margaret Thomas / John Hughes, but it`s Mostyn, Christ Church Dec 1856. I have asked for help on this elsewhere, so we`ll wait and see.
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Post by jojo on Mar 6, 2010 18:26:00 GMT
I was in Cefn this morning and had a look in Hayes marriage index. You are sooooo lucky to live so close ;D Heather (turning green in Vancouver
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Post by tominera on Mar 6, 2010 18:55:32 GMT
Hi, I have had the entry translated very kindly and expertly by Hafina Clwyd and I hope you will appreciate my dilemma when putting it in originally. Relevant part reads " The funeral sermon to our late sister as well as the late brother John Thomas was given by the Rev E Humphreys on Sunday evening, March 25th" Hafina also says if Margarets maiden name was not Thomas she suspects that the word brother may be used in the religous sense as in "dear brothers and sisters..." I have now rechecked the Magazine and found a John Thomas Bryngwyn, Summerhill died suddenly 23 1 1900 and was buried in Gwersyllt Cemetery 27 1 1900--The only clue to his age is this which hopefully someone will be able to translate " Daeth i'r cymmydogaethu hyn oddeutu deugain mlynedd yn ol" ;D Thanks Tom
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Post by jojo on Mar 6, 2010 21:24:52 GMT
Mar Q 1900 death John THOMAS, age 62, registered Wrexham
1891 census RG12 Piece 4616 Folio 125 Pages 47 & 48 Summerhill (Hill Street) Moss Gwersyllt
John THOMAS, H, widower, age 53, Sharpener, b Flint, Hope Mary THOMAS, dau, age 28 b Flint, Hope Catherine THOMAS, dau, age 26, Dressmaker, b Denbigh, Brymbo Elizabeth A THOMAS, dau, age 23, Dressmaker, b Denbigh, Gwersyllt Rebecca THOMAS, dau, age 20, b Denbigh Gwersyllt David THOMAS, son, age 18, Pupil teacher, b Denbigh Gwersyllt John THOMAS, son age 16, Shopkeepers Assistant, b Denbigh Gwersyllt All English speaking
As Annedw found John Hughes and Margaret were together on the 1851 census I wonder if Margaret THOMAS was already a widow when she married John Hughes? There is a marriage 1843 at Mold, St. Mary for a Margaret THOMAS with a William JONES on the same page? Just a thought.
Great puzzle Tom! Thank you for bringing it to light!
H
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Post by annedw on Mar 7, 2010 10:58:02 GMT
1901 RG13; Piece: 5222; Folio: 21; Page: 13. Living on Hill Street, This is not very far from where Enoch is living Seems like JT took over his fathers trade. John Thomas b 1875. Sharpener b Gwersyllt.
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Post by tominera on Mar 7, 2010 21:48:59 GMT
Hi, For what its worth I do not think John Thomas has any connection with Margaret other than they shared the funeral sermon and both probably attended the same chapel nearest to Summerhill at the time. (Only a hunch) I will look for baptisms next time they have an open day in Hope Church. Thanks again Tom
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Post by annedw on Mar 10, 2010 10:25:33 GMT
There is an entry in the Welsh magazine 'Y Cylchgrawn' Margaret HUGHES--Summerhill (Formerly Uwchymynydd) died 5 2 1900 aged 79 years and was buried 8 2 1900 in Llanfynydd Cemetery. I have now rechecked the Magazine and found a John Thomas Bryngwyn, Summerhill died suddenly 23 1 1900 and was buried in Gwersyllt Cemetery 27 1 1900Both these were presumably Wesleyan, yet Gwersyllt Cemtery is Holy Trinity Church, is Llanfynydd also the Church Would there also be an entry in the Parish Records Burial Register. MODIFIEDI`ve been told that all burials are entered in the Parish Church Registers, even if the person did not belong to the Church,
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Post by tominera on Mar 10, 2010 19:08:18 GMT
Hi, According to Evening Leader the Church records will be on display in Hope church next Sat. afternoon, so I will make a real attempt to get there. Hopefully I may find some clues then.--Tom MODIFIED--I have found the burial details for Margaret in burial reg. in Llanfynydd and the only new info confirms her address as Summerhill and formerly of Penystryt. which tallies with previous details put in thread.---Tom
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Post by nainffrith4 on Mar 11, 2010 12:47:17 GMT
I know this not about Margaret Hughes, but you mention the Hope church records being on show Saturday, I have looked but can't find the information in the Leader could you please tell me what time in the afternoon as I havee some family I would love to locate and hopefullythey are there. Thank you Norma.
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Post by tominera on Mar 11, 2010 18:16:38 GMT
Hi, It was a small entry about an Activity afternoon in Hope Church on Saturday afternoon 13th March during which the records will be available for visitors to view. I have just checked their website and it does confirm this and the times are 2 to 4pm. Happy hunting on Sat & good luck Tom
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Post by nainffrith4 on Mar 13, 2010 12:03:21 GMT
Thank you very much. With you mentioning a web site I had a look and this appears to be an ongoing event once amonth so if I don't any thing today I will be able to go back again. Again many thanks Norma.
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Post by tominera on Mar 13, 2010 22:13:56 GMT
Hi, Just to say I failed to find anything in Hope which could have helped with this thread---was hoping to find bapt of Sarah c 1852 & Elizabeth c 1855 but no joy. I did find a few odds and ends for the rest of the Hughes family so it was not a wasted afternoon. Tom
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Post by annedw on Mar 18, 2010 8:50:31 GMT
A very kind person looked up these at Hawarden. Nothing seems to be the right ones. I wonder if they were the Civil marriages, and that`s why Sarah and Elizabeth were not found in Hope PR`s.
Margaret Thomas marriage Mold 1843 was to John Prichard not William Jones
This is the Flint, St Mary`s one. March 1851 John Hughes(x) 30 bachelor. labourer. Co?dy??? Father, Hugh. Labourer. Margaret Jones(x) 23. spinster. Flint common. Father,Joseph. Stone Mason. Witnesses. Edward Davies(x) & Margaret Griffiths.
This is the Mostyn one Dec 20 1856. John Hughes. Full age. Bachelor. Miner. Holywell. Father, John. Miner. Margaret Thomas(x). Full age. Spinster. Rhewl. Father, Joseph. Collier. Witnesses. Thomas Hughes(x) & Elizabeth Lloyd(x)
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Post by tominera on Mar 18, 2010 15:14:23 GMT
Hi, Thanks for your much appreciated efforts--I must come clean and confess I was not able to concentrate on the bapt in Hope as a very friendly lady kept talking to me and showing me anything she found with the name Hughes in it ::)regardless of the fact they were marriages in the 1900's and I was searching for bapt in the 1800's ;D-She really did mean well and I did not want to appear rude. I will need to double check the bapt. of Sarah 1852/53 and Elizabeth abt 1855 before I can say for sure they are not there. There is another open day next month.--Tom
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