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Post by gwyneth on Oct 14, 2010 21:28:57 GMT
I came across this forum in a little idle searching on the names of my grandparents and Coedpoeth. I'm interested in building up a picture of the village my grandad grew up in and the life he may have led until he left the area and settled in Cheshire. Our family name is Roberts. He was Elias, born April, 1892, to Edward and Jane, who lived at Castle Road, I believe. His sister was Rosina (Rose), born 1894, by which time the family address is Bryn Tabor. The one who has surprised me is Griffith, b 1899, whose existence was unknown to me until I looked at the Salem Chapel baptisms. I would like to find out more about him and about my great grandmother Jane, whose surname I'm afraid I don't know. Robertses are quite complicated. Elias is on the roll of honour for Salem Chapel, though by then he had left, marrying in December 1916 and he is on the Congregational Chapel roll of honour in Northwich. Happily, he came home and lived until 1968, though plagued with his war-torn leg. I have letters written in 1917 by his officer telling his new wife that he was severely wounded, and by the War Office to his parents' address in Smithy Road. I also have cuttings of their war wedding and lots of photos. I have a personal interest in military history, as half of a research project into a specific aspect - more anon, if it's relevant. There is so much interesting information on this site which I shall enjoy perusing. Thank you all for sharing it.
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Post by susanjane on Oct 15, 2010 7:10:50 GMT
Hi Gwyneth, I too am descended from a Roberts family but after a quick look it doesn't seem that ours are related.You can read my posts on ''William Roberts and Harriett Jones'' In 1901 census your family are on London Rd. New Broughton, Brymbo Edw [Edward ] 38 coal miner born Coedpoeth Sarah Jane 36 birth ditto Elias X 8 ditto Rosina 6 " Tommy 4 " A look at freebmd has found the marriage of Edward Roberts to Sarah Jane Roberts in Mar quarter 1891 Wrexham District I couldn't identify either of them in previous censuses.They might either or both have been married before.You need to get their marriage certificate to find who their fathers were. There is another family of Roberts in Bersham with a son Elias born in 1891. Father is called Thomas -aged 40-born Minera so that implies that they could be brothers.They live 2 doors away from my great uncle Robert Roberts 26. I will look again at censuses and see if I can find Thomas. Hope this helps ;D Sue
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Post by tominera on Oct 15, 2010 13:23:51 GMT
Hi Gwyneth, These are a few names of possible relatives buried in Coedpoeth Cemetery. ROBERTS Edward Humphrey 74 Yrs buried 9 2 1938 Plot 1149 ROBERTS Sarah Jane aged 72 Yrs buried 20 7 1938 Plot 1149 ROBERTS Robert Thomas aged 73 Yrs buried 5 3 1969 Plot 315 ROBERTS Alfred Edward aged 7 Weeks buried 29 6 1923 Plot 315 ROBERTS Rosina aged 73 Yrs buried 25 1 1968 Plot 315 There is an Elias & Margaret Roberts buried in Plot 893 and a Pic is available of this headstone LW img 9610 probably not yours but maybe a relation. No trace of any Griffith Good luck Tom
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Post by annedw on Oct 15, 2010 14:14:52 GMT
I have found a militery record for an Elias Roberts of 7 Pattinsons Row Coedpoeth. Born about the right time. His next of kin is Margaret Jane Roberts his mother. He was a collier and was in the RWF. It seems he was a casualty and left in 1916 Could this be the same one.
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Post by susanjane on Oct 15, 2010 14:57:50 GMT
This is the other Elias Roberts, 1 year older and possibly a cousin with parents Thomas and Margaret Jane in 1901 census. I have found an Elizabeth Roberts 44 widow living on the Green in Brymbo in 1881.With her are Thomas 21 and Edward 18. In 1861-same address Samuel Roberts 25 lab b Denbighshire N wales Elizabeth 23 ditto Thomas 1 Elizabeth 1 month. This looks like the right family but having difficulty finding them in 1871 and 1891.Cannot confirm that they are your Edwards family.
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Post by gwyneth on Oct 15, 2010 15:28:39 GMT
Many thanks for so much information. I'll have to do some rummaging through old papers and photos, and ask my mum what she remembers of names. Sadly my father died thirty years ago before I had chance to write down all I wanted to know. I've been deterred by the complexities caused by our surname. I don't have access to Ancestry or similar.
Sue: Ah. Tommy rang a bell; I'm embarrassed to say I had forgotten him. The newspaper report of my grandparents' 'Khaki Wedding' (which I have - my grandma saved it) says that the bridegroom's sister Rose [ie Rosina] was a bridesmaid and Thomas [ie Tommy] Roberts, the bridegroom's brother, was best man. I believe Edward was indeed a miner and I was told his father walked from north to south Wales in search of mining work.
Edit: Thank you for the information in the second post.
Tom: I'm sorry to sound stupid, but when you write: ROBERTS Edward Humphrey 74 Yrs b.9 2 1938 Plot 1149 what does the b.9.2.1938 mean? Buried on that date? If so, the 1960s dates are likely to be people I just remember and visited when I was small.
It sounds as if Griffith - if he is a sibling - didn't live very long, which would account for why I hadn't heard of him.
Elias my grandfather married Mary Ellen Thompson of Northwich 10th Dec 1916 and and they had one night together before his unit was mobilised for France. The marriage was by special licence and the dates on the leave pass suggest that they planned to marry about ten days later but brought the wedding forward because he was on orders for foreign service. He returned to Prees Heath the next day and left for France on 14 December 1916.
annedw: My grandfather Elias worked for a draper and was in the Cheshire Regt, then in 8 Borders when he was wounded on 6.8.1917 near Bellewarde. For some reason the War Office wrote officially to his parents at 3 Smithy Rd Coedpoeth when he was injured, though his officer wrote to his wife.
Elias was cremated in Altrincham in February 1968 and his wife died in 1981.
Many thanks again. I am very appreciative, because I'm aware from my own project that looking things up takes time.
Gwyneth
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Post by annedw on Oct 15, 2010 16:02:52 GMT
North Wales BMD The 1891 marriage took place at St Giles Parish church .Wrexham It will make it easier now to check for fathers name etc. The PRs microfim are in Wrexham Archives. Edward Roberts / on same page. HOWE Frances C45/11/247 JONES John Matthew C45/11/247 ROBERTS Sarah Jane C45/11/247 MODIFIED. It looks like this is little Griffith, he died before the 1901 census. Deaths Sep 1900 Roberts. Griffith age 0 Wrexham 11b 167
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Post by tominera on Oct 15, 2010 17:53:29 GMT
Hi Gwyneth, Have modified post and b. does mean buried Will gladly look up any more burials in Coedpoeth Cemetery if required-Tom
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Post by susanjane on Oct 15, 2010 21:06:08 GMT
Hi again I have now found this family--hope that they are your ones!! 1871 Green at Brymbo Betsey Roberts 31 widow charwoman born Hope Flintshire Thomas 11 collier Edward 8 scholar Mary 3 Fanny 1 1891 Minera Car Mynyyd Cottages Thomas Roberts 27 stationary engine driver Margaret J 26 William 2 Catherine E 1 Hannah Davies 9 sister in law Mary Ann Davies 8 ditto All born Minera. Next door is Car Mynyyd House and beyond that is Victoria Terrace 'Club Room' So Margaret J is a Davies I presume. Sue
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Post by susanjane on Oct 15, 2010 21:53:01 GMT
I would like to send Gwyneth a private message. How do I do that? Is it still possible?
Sue
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Post by gwyneth on Oct 16, 2010 0:23:56 GMT
Thank you, Tom and Sue. I need to write this down and see how it works.
Sue - I've just tried the 'send pm' icon to you, so see what happens.
Although I've always been proud of my Welsh ancestry, it was the Chilean miners who brought them to my mind because my mum mentioned that my father's cousin worked at Gresford pit. Strange how the mind makes connections.
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Post by annedw on Oct 16, 2010 12:58:32 GMT
I was at a loose end this afternoon, so popped into the Archives. Are these the right family . Marriage at St Giles. Banns. By W Vaughen Jones, curate. 25 February 1891. Edward Roberts 26. bachelor, miner, Bersham. father Edward Roberts, miner. Sarah Jane Roberts 25. spinster, Adwy. father Elias Roberts, miner. Both made their mark X, Wittnesses were Robert Griffiths and Isabella Carr ? Elias is a good clue 1891 Both only spoke Welsh. Talwrn Road , Coedpoeth Edward Roberts 27 collier b Bersham. Sarah Roberts 26 wife b " Struggling to find Sarah Jane with Elias in previous years Edward and his father are just as elusive There`s no Isabella Carr living locally in 1891, I wonder if Sarah and her family had moved away and she came back to Wrexham to be married. FREE BMD. take your pick. Births Mar 1864 ROBERTS Sarah Jane Wrexham 11b 344 Births Jun 1865 Roberts Sarah Jane Wrexham 11b 323 Births Sep 1865 Roberts Sarah Jane Wrexham 11b 341 Births Dec 1867 Roberts Sarah Jane Wrexham 11b 310
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Post by susanjane on Oct 17, 2010 16:44:06 GMT
Hi Gwyneth,
I have found all the census entries for your Edward, and his father Edward and his father Griffith-all at Eclusham Above.
I have so far failed to find Griffith in 1841 census.Or any of ther family. Perhaps,like my grx2 grandfather, he then had a different surname.
In 1851 the family are at Peny fron, Eclusham
Griffith Roberts 55 ag lab born Corwen, Merionethshire Jane 50 b Llanbeda Denbighshire Thomas 24 Edward 15 both sons born Gwertheclusham [Eclusham above?] But I cannot find Elias aged 12-15. There is Elias Roberts 13 b Llandeglas farm servant to John Hughes 46 at Lower Glascoed, Bersham.
1861 Bryn Infend? Eclusham Griffith Roberts 66 widower ag lab born Llanelidan? Edward 24 Lime stone quarryman born Llandegla Elias 22 dito ditto
1871 Bwn or Bryn Anima? Eclusham Edward Roberts 35 labourer b Vrondeg Sarah 33 b Llanfair Frederick 8 Edward 7 Elias 5 Thomas 2 Mary Ann 4 months -all born Vrondeg
1881 Eclusham Lower Wilford Hafen Edward Roberts 44 lead miner born Corwen Ann 41 b Flin Gelcen ? Frederick 18 Edward Humphrey 17 Elias 15 Thomas 12 Mary Ann 10 all born Eclusham Perter Roberts 4 nephew born Minera
not sure whether this is a new wife.You need to look at bmd etc.
I was obviously wrong on the other Roberts family although they might be related
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Post by annedw on Oct 17, 2010 17:06:14 GMT
Wern baptisms. Father, mother and her maiden name, date of birth,childs name, abode, date of baptism
ROBERTS Edward Leadminer Sarah JONES 07-Jul-1862 Frederick Esclusham Above 12-Aug-1862 ROBERTS Edward Limer Sarah JONES 04-Dec-1870 Mary Ann Frondeg 18-Jan-1871 ROBERTS Edward Leadminer Sarah JONES Edward Humphrey Esclusham Above 21-Feb-1864 ROBERTS Edward Miner Sarah JONES 14-Jan-1866 Elias Frondeg 21-Feb-1866 ROBERTS Edward Farmer Sarah JONES 18-Jul-1867 Margaret Ann. Ewain. 25-Aug-1867 ROBERTS Edward Farmer Sarah JONES 11-Sep-1868 Thomas. Ewain. 27-Oct-1868
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Post by eluned on Oct 17, 2010 18:01:25 GMT
I have so far failed to find Griffith in 1841 census.Or any of ther family. The 1841 census for the Wrexham area is unfortunately missing
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Post by gwyneth on Oct 17, 2010 19:38:18 GMT
Thank you very very much for going to so much trouble. I'm very grateful. I need to digest this. On a large piece of paper. Edward (I think my great grandfather or maybe his father) was nicknamed Edward Rhosymawn after his home. I may have the spelling wrong. I am told for a fact (!) that he saw ghosts. Some of the old members of the family were still Welsh-only speaking when I was very small. They all seemed to live in cluttered houses where every single inch of every single horizontal surface the mantlepiece the piano the dresser the sideboard the table the shelves the kitchen range was occupied by ornaments, bric-a-brac, photos in frames and hymn books, and every chair was dressed with antimacassars. To a very small girl, it was all rather scary. Gwyneth
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Post by annedw on Oct 18, 2010 7:45:55 GMT
I think you need to look more closely at Edward b 1865, even though it seems to be the right names etc, there`s a chance it could be another one. The marriage only gives his residence at time of marriage. In the Wern records Edwards occupation changes from leadminer in 1862 to farmer in 1868. I have checked these and they are correct. In the census he is a limestone quarry man in 1861 and labourer in 1871. Why do our ancestors make things so hard Another thought, seeing as one family was Nonconformist, it strikes me as a bit strange that the marriage was in Church, unless it was Sarah Jane`s family that wanted this. These burials that Tom found seem to be the same as Edward ( Humphrey) possilby Elias`s father Funny how the name Elias comes into the plot more than once. Possibly an obituary might give some clues, if there was one of course, ROBERTS Edward Humphrey 74 Yrs buried 9 2 1938 Plot 1149 ROBERTS Sarah Jane aged 72 Yrs buried 20 7 1938 Plot 1149
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Post by gwyneth on Oct 19, 2010 22:24:33 GMT
Thank you very much for that - I'm sorry for the delay in responding. I've unearthed a letter which confirms Edward Humphrey Roberts and Sarah Jane (nee Roberts!) to be Elias's parents. I need to look at the information carefully.
I'm ok on tracing the history of buildings, but people... I'm a novice.
Gwyneth
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Post by annedw on Oct 20, 2010 13:40:50 GMT
Good news about Edward Humphrey then, quite often you find that our ancestors changed thier middle names around or dropped one of them. This is a definate match. Free BMD.Births Mar 1864 ROBERTS Edward Humphreys Wrexham 11b 338 Wern baptism. Edward Humphrey Esclusham Above 21-Feb-1864 ROBERTS Edward Leadminer, Sarah JONES Free BMD marriages has a choice of two. Marriages Jun 1861 All names on same page. Baker Deborah Wrexham 11b 535 Jackson Thomas Wrexham 11b 535 Jones Sarah Wrexham 11b 535 Roberts Edward Wrexham 11b 535 Senior Joseph Wrexham 11b 535 Marriages Jun 1863 All on same page. GRIFFITHS Jane Wrexham 11b 557 JONES Sarah Wrexham 11b 557 ROBERTS Edward Wrexham 11b 557 North Wales BMD has one choice. All on same page. St Giles.1861 JONES Sarah BAKER Deborah C45/06/5 JACKSON Thomas C45/06/5 ROBERTS Edward C45/06/5 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post by tominera on Oct 20, 2010 14:54:37 GMT
Just to help verify certain info this is them in 1911 Census ROBERTS Edward age 47-Coal Miner Hewer ROBERTS Jane age 45 married 20 years-4 children, 1 dead ROBERTS Thomas aged 14 years They all spoke English & Welsh and were born in Bersham, Denbighshire. Their address was 1 Smithy Rd. Coedpoeth, Wrexham
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Post by susanjane on Oct 22, 2010 17:13:13 GMT
1881 Eclusham Lower Wilford Hafen Edward Roberts 44 lead miner born Corwen Ann 41 b Flin Gelcen ? Frederick 18 Edward Humphrey 17 Elias 15 Thomas 12 Mary Ann 10 all born Eclusham Perter Roberts 4 nephew born Minera
not sure whether this is a new wife.You need to look at bmd etc.
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Post by susanjane on Oct 22, 2010 17:26:50 GMT
Slight hiccup there I had written a long message and then looked at it on preview and promptly lost it!! I wanted to say!! It is easy to get muddled as both Edward Roberts married Sarah's.However Ed Humph's wife did call herself Jane. I think Ed seniors wife Sarah might have died as on BMD there is a Sarah Roberts aged 34 in Jun q 1872 in Wrexham district.[she was 32 in 1871 census] Then BMD shows various Edward Roberts on the same page as some Anns, who they might have married! Mar q 1873 Ann Matthias Jun q 1873 and Dec q 1876 to Ann Jones Sep q 1877 to Annie Roche If Ed Seniors burial is found it might also show his spouse/s Finding the parents of young Peter below might also help. 1881 Census--Eclusham Lower Wilford, Hafen Edward Roberts 44 lead miner born Corwen Ann 41 b Flin Gelcen ? [this might be Flint] Frederick 18 Edward Humphrey 17 Elias 15 Thomas 12 Mary Ann 10 all born Eclusham Perter Roberts 4 nephew born Minera
not sure whether this is a new wife.You need to look at bmd etc.
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Post by susanjane on Oct 25, 2010 10:17:54 GMT
AND HUMPHREY AND SARAH ROBERTS FROM BRYMBO,WITH LETTERS SENT HOME, ohio.llgc.org.uk/pigion-hsr.php I have copied this thread across from WHO ARE THE HUGHES entered by ago I think that this family could be related to Gwyneth's as they have the name Humphrey. There are many other people mentioned who could be researched. Sue
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Post by susanjane on Oct 25, 2010 10:21:51 GMT
I have also Pasted my longer message across.It might interest someone in the future Sue ;D re Humphrey and Sarah Roberts letters Can I recommend these letters-fascinating reading. Especially liked the venom aimed at the Calvinists living near them in Ohio! I have tried to find the family on UK BMD without success.I tried looking for the children too on 1841/51. With the name Humphrey then he might be related to Gwyneth's Elias Roberts family. He might have had same name as his father and thus been known by his 2nd name. I did find John Colley, who is mentioned as having turned back from the ship, living in Brymbo in 1851 and 1861--maybe more to find-no time Must try and find their passage out to America.And on US censuses. bit busy just now! Sue
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Post by susanjane on Oct 26, 2010 13:25:21 GMT
I have just tried accessing the URL above without success. Use the one on ago's thread WHO WERE THE HUGHES Maybe one of the admin can transfer it across more successfully. Thanks Sue
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Post by gwyneth on Nov 23, 2010 15:22:55 GMT
Thank you very much, susanjane. I'm sorry for the delay in replying, but I've been away without internet access.
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