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Post by tudorstyle2003 on Nov 27, 2011 0:28:29 GMT
Hi I wondered if anyone knows where to find out more about where my great uncle Private J R FRANCIS 39093, 16th Bn., Royal Welsh Fusiliers who died on 04 August 1917 fought and where he actually died. I know that he is buried at the DOZINGHEM MILITARY CEMETERY. I've had a look through a few websites and I'm not sure whether or not it was his 16th battalion that merged into the 38th which fought at Mametz. I'd be grateful for any help. Deb
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Post by eluned on Nov 27, 2011 9:21:49 GMT
16th (Service) Battalion Formed at Llandudno in November 1914 www.1914-1918.net/38div.htmBattle of Pilkem, 31 July - 2 August 1917 Subsequent: the capture of Westhoek, 10 August 1917 From "A History of the 38th (Welsh) Division" "On the night of the 1st/2nd (Aug 1917) the 113th Brigade took over the Front Line. From this date up to the 6th August there is but little to record whatever, the weather during this period being so bad that operations became impossible."
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Post by annedw on Nov 27, 2011 10:15:09 GMT
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Post by pierce on Nov 27, 2011 21:39:50 GMT
These following web sites may be of help www.warpath.orbat.com/ Click on infantry, then RWF. then on 16th Bat. Will give you a order of Battle. www.rwfmuseum.org.uk/ This is the home of the Regimental Museum will provide links and research material they will even do that for you. WWW.rwfphotos.co.uk This is a collection of photos including WW1. You have all the information you need name regimental number. However, just a point it is possible that he enlisted in the 16th Battalion but he may not have been in that battalion when he was killed. Due to heavy casualties it was not unknown for men to be moved into other battalions and even regiments to make up for the casualties. Another possible line of research is through either My Ancestry or National Archives under Medal Roll. This will give you some information. If he was married his wife should have recieved a military pension and these records show where he enlisted, height, and other details. Good luck
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Post by pierce on Nov 27, 2011 22:07:10 GMT
The Battle of The Somme and Mametz Wood 1916. Welsh Battalions which took part in The Battle of The Somme were 2nd and 6th Welsh (1st Division), 9th Welsh (19th Division), the 10th, 13th, 14th, 15th 16th and 19th Welsh (38 Division) The 16th suffered very heavy casualties as they approached the wood from German machine guns which were firing at thigh and hip height. Total casualties from the Battle of Mametz Wood were Officers Killed 46, wounded 138, missing 6. Other Ranks kiulled 556, wounded 2,668, missing 579 giving a total of Officers 190 Other Ranks 3,803
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Post by tudorstyle2003 on Nov 27, 2011 23:17:22 GMT
Thankyou so much everyone. I will have a good look at the websites and info you provided. Thanks again Deb
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Post by gwil on Nov 29, 2011 21:21:47 GMT
Deb It doesn't look as if John Francis was at the Mametz action. His papers are available. Having attested in January 1916 (very likely under the Derby Scheme*) he was called up 3/3/1916. He spent some time in training and with the 3rd Battalion in the UK and then went to France in Oct 1916 where he was posted to the 16th Bn 6/11/1916. He is shown as Died (Dorsal Spine) at 47 Casualty Clearing Station(CCS) on 4/8/1917. Another form states Died of Wounds (Dorsal Spine). The database Sodiers Died Great War states he Died. They differentiate between Killed in Action, Died of Wounds, Died where Died means disease and illness etc. In John Francis' case though I rather suspect it's an error based on a few points. 1. I can't readily find a medical condition called Dorsal Spine 2. He died in a CCS and these were pretty near the start of the casualty evacuation chain (see **) Men who died of wounds at a CCS generally would have suffered those wounds only a few days previously.3. The Battalion took part in the Battle of Pilkem Ridge which began 31st July. Their War Diary*** shows that between 31/7 and 4/8 the Other Ranks suffered 33 Killed, 9 Died of Wounds and 183 Wounded. CWGC have this to say about Dozinghem Cemetery where he is buried "...but in July 1917, in readiness for the forthcoming offensive, groups of casualty clearing stations were placed at three positions called by the troops Mendinghem, Dozinghem and Bandaghem. The 4th, 47th and 61st Casualty Clearing Stations were posted at Dozinghem and the military cemetery was used by them until early in 1918...." Tommy Atkins black humour it's best!! Gwil PS can you please please please change the title to Royal Welsh Fusiliers. :-) * www.1914-1918.net/derbyscheme.html** www.1914-1918.net/wounded.htm*** War Diary is availabe on line for £3.50. You could follow his war from when he joined the Bn in Nov 1916 www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=8199426&queryType=1&resultcount=9
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Post by tudorstyle2003 on Nov 29, 2011 23:17:30 GMT
Thankyou very much Gwil. Pardon my ignorance I have modified the title as requested. Thanks again Deb
PS How did you find the information?
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Post by gwil on Nov 30, 2011 14:43:04 GMT
Deb
Thanks for changing the title. My request was tongue in cheek but looking at it I can see that maybe my intentions were not conveyed 'in print' as it were.
His Service papers have survived.
His brother Jesse Francis ended up as 310933 in Tank Corps. His papers have also survived.
Can't see anything for Llewelyn and I should think that Thomas Emlyn and Trevor were too young.
Gwil
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Post by tudorstyle2003 on Dec 1, 2011 3:36:50 GMT
Thanks again Gwil I live in Australia but if I wanted to get their service records should I contact the National Archives? Thomas Emlyn was my grandfather. Deb
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Post by gwil on Dec 1, 2011 11:28:11 GMT
Deb The records will be at the NA but they are also available on the paysite Ancestry. They offer a free 14 day trial period I'm given to understand. www.ancestry.co.uk/Gwil
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Post by annedw on Dec 1, 2011 14:06:27 GMT
I have found Jesse, no Thomas Emlyn , Llewellyn . Did you already have JR`s papers. ?
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Post by tudorstyle2003 on Dec 1, 2011 22:52:35 GMT
Thanks again Gwil.
Annedw I'm sure I have some of JR's paperwork somewhere. I know I have his medal card. I haven't really done any family research for a couple of years and I haven't unpacked some things from when I moved a couple of years ago. Deb
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Post by pierce on Dec 2, 2011 21:38:46 GMT
Deb. He was awarded the following campaign Medals 1. Victory Medal. 2. British War Medal
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Post by pierce on Dec 2, 2011 21:59:31 GMT
gwil Reference "Dorsal Spine", have found reference to this condition. It is also known as Thoracic Spine, which consists of the 12 vertebrae which form the longest part of the spine which can fracture if subjected to more pressure than they can take. It would appear that Private Frances received wound(s) to this area of his body which resulted in his death. It is a possibility therefore that the wound(s) could have been caused by blast pressure or shrapnel from exploding shell or mortar.
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Post by tudorstyle2003 on Dec 2, 2011 23:20:28 GMT
Thanks Pierce
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Post by ago on Jan 29, 2012 11:16:34 GMT
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Post by pierce on Mar 19, 2012 22:30:42 GMT
Tudorstyle : Hope your research is progressing. Try this web site There are photos on there of the 16th Battalion. It has been set up by family and former members of RWF. www.rwfphotos.co.uk
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Post by tudorstyle2003 on Mar 25, 2012 6:08:37 GMT
Thanks for that Pierce
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