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Post by marianjames on Feb 12, 2013 14:01:53 GMT
Good afternoon Eluned, At the time of death George was living @ his daughters house at 46, New Rd, Rhosddu. On the marr cert he was a market gardeners labourer, & on the d cert he was a market gardener. Don't have a birth cert, be ok otherwise. Daft question but what is a PR? At the moment I am unable to visit the A.N.Palmer Centre so next time I come up that's what I shall do. Thanks a lot, Marian.
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Post by eluned on Feb 12, 2013 14:47:42 GMT
Hi and thank you for the info. PRs = Parish Registers You said ‘The only evidence I have that it is the right Walter that went to the U.S.A. is that I have a letter from the Veterans Home with info saying his D.O.B. as being 3:07:1864 England, & on the death index that his mothers maiden name as Russell.’This does not appear to be evidence to say he is George’s father. It confirms that a Walter Leonard James went to USA but necessarily the correct one. Do you have a will or any other document giving any connection between this Walter Leonard and George James? Was the Veteran’s Home contacted by yourself recently or was this a letter sent when Walter died to a family member perhaps? I suppose what I am asking is how did you find Walter as something isn’t quite right here. In 1881 your Walter is 16, single and living in Bromsgrove but George was born in Bristol in 1878/1881? His father was Henry James, bank manager so could well have left a will. Henry James died Jun ¼ 1903 69yrs Stourbridge Marr Stourbridge 1857 Henry James to Elizabeth Eleanor Russell so looks probable that it's their son Walter that went to USA. eluned
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Post by celticar on Feb 12, 2013 15:51:33 GMT
eluned, I see you spotted what I was showing with the info I found There is no link that I can see or has been pointed out to connect Walter USA with George. 1) Walter was catholic and born in Bromsgrove. (( Does your family have catholic ties)) 2) Walter would have been 14 in 1878 and 16/17 in 1881. 3) Walter was a Clerk in 1881 census, And up to Mid 1923 from USA information was a Clerk. Aged 58/59. 4) In 1933 he is retired (aged 69) 5) You state that on Georges Marriage certificate in 1926, that Walter is marked down as a Ships Steward. 6) You state Walter often came to visit. IF George's real Father called Walter was a Ships Steward as part of his Normal working life in the Navy ( Merchant or Miltitary) He would very likely often go to America/Canada and visit when in a home port.
As an added bit of interesting info that could very well be connected is the following : Ruby Joynor b1899 was from Chipping Norton. And married George James who was from Bristol area b 1880 ish In 1926. Free BMD shows the following. Edward F James married Louisa B Joynor, Gloucester district 1912. Edward was born Bristol 1892. Louisa Beatrice Joynor born 1892 Gloucester.
Could the two James be related (cousins ??) and that George met Ruby through family ties Worth a thought.
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Post by annedw on Feb 12, 2013 21:52:06 GMT
Hi and thank you for the info. His father was Henry James, bank manager so could well have left a will. Henry James died Jun ¼ 1903 69yrs Stourbridge Marr Stourbridge 1857 Henry James to Elizabeth Eleanor Russell so looks probable that it's their son Walter that went to USA. eluned Wills and probate. JAMES Henry of Stourbridge Worcestershire died 3 May 1903. Probate London to Eleanor Rose James spinster , Arthur Ignatius James engineer, and George William Singleton tobacco manufacturer . Effects £10931 10s Births Sep 1871 JAMES Arthur Ignatius Stourbridge Marriages Sep 1891 Glover Alice Maud Stourbridge 6c 267 James Frances Pauline Stourbridge 6c 267 Perks James Richard Stourbridge 6c 267 Singleton George William Stourbridge 6c 267 1911 this couple are in Edgebaston. Tobacco manufacturer, The status of this James family in relation to George James just doesn`t add up. In December 1900, Clement Allen Joyner ( with others ) of Milton upon Wychwood was summoned but failed to appear in court, for neglecting to have their children vaccinated. This is Ruby`s Dad.
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Post by celticar on Feb 12, 2013 21:55:10 GMT
Using the information we do have, I found the following. Walter James..... Aged 24 (born about 1862) ...... Bristol. Sailing on Constance 1886. Occupation........... STEWARDHe would be 16 at earliest date, and the rest of the information's makes him a very strong contender to be George's Father. And as Walter USA was in the US Army in 1886, they clearly are 2 different Walter's Going by other friends and relations (via marriage) who have had family who joined navy as young men, many just put down the port of first enlistment as home town.
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Post by eluned on Feb 12, 2013 22:11:30 GMT
Using the information we do have, I found the following. Walter James..... Aged 24 (born about 1862) ...... Bristol. Sailing on Constance 1886. Occupation........... STEWARDHe would be 16 at earliest date, and the rest of the information's makes him a very strong contender to be George's Father. This looks very good so far
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Post by annedw on Feb 12, 2013 22:23:09 GMT
In the last census. Ruby Joyner aged 12 b Milton under Wychwood. Oxfordshire Father is Allen Joyner 40, builders labourer married 15 years. Mother is Emma 40 siblings Harry 8, Dorothy 5, George 3 , Alice 3 months .
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Post by celticar on Feb 12, 2013 23:09:53 GMT
We know the following... In 1954 aged 76 when died................Born 1878 (Died in 24/08/1954) In 1911 aged 32 in census................. Born 1979 (Census Sunday 2nd April 1911) If his birthday was AFTER 2 April in 1911 that would mean there is a good chance if he gave honest info he was born 1878. Looking at the 1911 Census, the house holder could not write ( X placed in signature) So who filled it in on her behalf I wonder ?? So we have 2 dates for born 1878/79 His marrage certificate he says aged 45 so giving 1881. If he knocked a few years off due to age difference he was actually aged about 48 And Ruby 27.
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Post by marianjames on Feb 13, 2013 1:47:46 GMT
Hello everyone, on a marriage cert, does the father of the bride & groom have to be still working or can they be retired & not say so? but still put their type of work down? Also the letter I have from the veterans home says his dob, his place of birth & the correct mothers maiden name. I sent them an e-mail in 2008 & they e-mailed me back.It also says his occupation was a clerk. Clement Allan Joyner is Ruby's dad I have an image from the archive that Walter L James was on the Scythia ship of the Steamship Line Cunard as a passenger to NY from Liverpool in Jan 1933, he had stayed @ 20a, Queen St. Stourbridge. Would Walter have to of been in the Navy etc, or could he have been on a liner - steamship? So, is Walter & George related cos I'm confused now. Then again I believe that they are & that age has got in the way or something like that. Good night, Marian.
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Post by celticar on Feb 13, 2013 5:38:07 GMT
Your missing the point Marian. The information they sent you is CORRECT for Walter who went to USA. So his mother's name IS correct. What we are saying is that apart from Walter's name being WALTER LEONARD JAMES there is NO CONNECTION between the man who is George's father called WALTER.
Many of the population did not have their middle name put down in the census. And because of the middle name LEONARD you think you have the WRONG person.
Where is George if born 1878/9 on the 1881, 1891, 1901 census ?? He's not in USA that we can find.
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Post by eluned on Feb 13, 2013 8:26:53 GMT
Hi and thank you for the info. You said ‘The only evidence I have that it is the right Walter that went to the U.S.A. is that I have a letter from the Veterans Home with info saying his D.O.B. as being 3:07:1864 England, & on the death index that his mothers maiden name as Russell.’This does not appear to be evidence to say he is George’s father. It confirms that a Walter Leonard James went to USA but necessarily the correct one. I suppose what I am asking is how did you find Walter as something isn’t quite right here. In 1881 your Walter is 16, single and living in Bromsgrove but George was born in Bristol in 1878/1881? Marr Stourbridge 1857 Henry James to Elizabeth Eleanor Russell so looks probable that it's their son Walter that went to USA. eluned Hi Marian I was trying not to confuse you by checking your family tree one step at a time but perhaps so many posts haven't helped.....you know what us family history lot are like, we just like searching lol! On a marriage cert the info given for the bride's and groom's fathers is only as reliable as the person giving it so in their absence people could have said as little as they wanted. If the bride was asked 'father's job' she may well say 'builder' but he could even be deceased.
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Post by eluned on Feb 13, 2013 8:35:24 GMT
I think we need to find a birth or baptism for George and try to find him in the census. Just a thought but George could well have given incorrect info on his marriage cert....Walter could be a red herring!! If George did re marry, the marr entry would be extremely interesting!!
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Post by celticar on Feb 13, 2013 16:38:32 GMT
Would be interesting, but by this stage there are a number of George James, born in the Wrexham area alone. The other difficulty is we have NO other referance to Bristol other than the 1911 Census. If we just went by the name GEORGE LEONARD JAMES, only one near to 1881 turns up. George Leonard A James, BMD. Births Mar 1883, St. Asaph. If he was born back of 1882, and not registered until 1883 he would indeed just squeeze in to be 45 on Marrage Certificate ;D ;D ;D And NO it's not him LOL But this George in 1911 is a Policeman and does NOT have his middle name put down on census. But I hope this show's Marian why what info we do have to date does not match up, And why we all feel back to basic's and follow each step backwards and confirming as we got is the best step
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Post by marianjames on Feb 14, 2013 1:07:31 GMT
Hi everyone, so where do we go from here, are you saying that the Walter on the marriage cert is not the one that went to the USA. & if George born in Bristol & the Walter I think it is was from Bromsgrove or not very old then its too far away. Then my thinking is that the woman might have moved away to have the baby. So do I have to come up with W L James who was a ships steward but younger than about 68 or so.
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Post by eluned on Feb 14, 2013 7:55:50 GMT
Using the information we do have, I found the following. Walter James..... Aged 24 (born about 1862) ...... Bristol. Sailing on Constance 1886. Occupation........... STEWARDHe would be 16 at earliest date, and the rest of the information's makes him a very strong contender to be George's Father. This looks very good so far Sorry but in dash this morning....working Celticar did find this one that needs some investigation
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Post by eluned on Feb 14, 2013 18:01:04 GMT
Hi everyone, so where do we go from here, are you saying that the Walter on the marriage cert is not the one that went to the USA. & if George born in Bristol & the Walter I think it is was from Bromsgrove or not very old then its too far away. Then my thinking is that the woman might have moved away to have the baby. So do I have to come up with W L James who was a ships steward but younger than about 68 or so. Yes I'm afraid the one you found isn't a likely candidate. It isn't a case of 'coming up with,' as not only does the name have to be a match but there has to be something that ties both Walter and George. For instance, if a Walter said in his will that he had left something to his son George of Holt Denbighshire. That would be evidence. What I am thinking is that even if you located the correct one, that evidence to prove this, may be difficult to obtain but I would still be trying as you just never know modified to correct typo!
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Post by celticar on Feb 14, 2013 21:49:30 GMT
No, nothing more as yet. Only chance is to look at crew lists and travel records on all sites. But looking at idea that as Bristol was a major port in 1860's, I looked at people born at sea. James (Male) 22 December 1860. Ship's name: Summer Cloud. Parents George James and Ann m James. Proves nothing, but shows other possible avenue's of reseach. Does George's marriage certificate show if he was single or other key word ?? Staying single until he was 45 (48) ok had first child aged 40, seem's strange. Cant help but wonder if he was married before at that age. Could he have been a bigamous And hid some of the facts about himself All pie in the sky with out more facts, but a most interesting search
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Post by marianjames on Feb 15, 2013 21:34:50 GMT
Hi everyone, on the marriage cert it says that he was a bachelor, who knows if he was telling the truth or not. Marian.Thanks for your help
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Post by celticar on Feb 15, 2013 23:01:02 GMT
Is there an obituary in newspaper(s) about him ?? May mention about his past or some relatives that may help by looking them up ??
But the fact is many who couldn't afford a divorce just left the family and started new ones. Does appear to be many gaps about him before 1911 census. Bristol is a major City and Port and a large borough in it's own right for that time period, So he should turn up.
Out of interest, did he sign his own name on his marriage certificate or with an "X" and then someone wrote his name ?? And who were the witnesses ?
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Post by eluned on Feb 16, 2013 9:25:08 GMT
Thanks for the info I don't know who George married or when for the 2nd time. (or even the 3rd). The witness were William Henry Lucas & Elizabeth Stevens. Marian.
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Post by celticar on Feb 16, 2013 14:25:13 GMT
William Henry Lucas. b1902 Holt. Living Bridge St, Holt, Wrexham. 1911 Census. And there is a Elizabeth Stevens b1900 from Stroud Area of Gloucestershire not far from area Ruby is born. What is interesting is "if" both are correct people, is that both are of the same age group as Ruby. Why no one of the age group of George As a total side line but interesting, and highlights problems of people not telling truth in census and other documents, is fact that Elizabeth Stevens of Stroud area, is her parents say married 11 years in 1911 census but first 3 children born out of wedlock and named after mother "BRIDGEMAN". Annie BRIDGEMAN was a lodger with George Stevens in 1901 census. They married in 1906 in Stroud area.
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Post by nellie on Feb 16, 2013 19:41:46 GMT
www.promare.co.uk/ships/Wrecks/Wk_Constance.htmlIt seems that if it were George's father on the Constance he never went further than the Dutch ports and Antwerp. The owners of the Constance were the Bristol Steam Navigation Company and in 1888 one of the crew members was a Joseph Stevens - wonder if there is a connection with Elizabeth Stevens?
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Post by marianjames on Feb 17, 2013 17:41:34 GMT
Hi everyone, I have a photo with GLJames & Mrs Price in the summer of 1948, Rhosrobin, also another photo of him in the garden of 3, Hilldrop, New Rhosrobin. Don't know if it is the same address. Also have another address of 20, Airey Houses, Wheatsheaf Lane, Gwersyllt. I know that the eldest son lived at some point at these addresses.
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Post by celticar on Feb 17, 2013 21:57:56 GMT
Good work nellie Did have a look, and there are a few james married to stevens in bristol and surronding areas, but not showed up after a quick look. Would take to much work with out clues to narrow down, and we still cant pin down George's date of birth as no one match's well with out more info. Marian. You may have to make inquires with the martime museums for crews records for more help over Walter. www.crewlist.org.uk/crewlist.html for a good starting point and to point you in direction of other sites to look at. Link of Great benifit to any other members looking for family members male and female who served in Navy. ;D
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Post by tominera on Feb 25, 2013 15:56:12 GMT
Hi, The marriage mentioned earlier of George James was in Berse Church 25 7 1931 and his father was James James Deceased-no occupation given which I would think rules him out
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Post by eluned on Feb 25, 2013 16:23:58 GMT
Thank you for the look up.....I think
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Post by annedw on Mar 2, 2013 17:17:42 GMT
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Post by marianjames on May 25, 2013 1:05:25 GMT
Hello everyone, I was wondering if I should mention that I came across in the 1911 census a Walter James who was a ships Steward mere marine. 1 of his sons was a Robert George age 4yrs. Lived in S Shields. Don't suppose it makes sense but thought I would send a message. Thanks - Marian. A question for you all, when it says on the marriage cert. the occupation of the father, could it have been his work & he could be retired? Hope that makes sense.
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Post by eluned on May 27, 2013 10:55:47 GMT
No the father's occupation wouldn't have to be current, the father could be retired or deceased
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