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Post by tominera on Feb 8, 2013 18:57:56 GMT
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Post by celticar on Feb 8, 2013 19:59:53 GMT
Hi Tom. There is a George James who died in Wrexham 1954, but no George Leonard James. Is it possible to have full name confirmed please. And the marriage you mention I found says to Ruby A S Joyner. So some confirmation on her grand-mother to cross referance would be good to please Tom :-)
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Post by eluned on Feb 8, 2013 20:12:46 GMT
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Post by celticar on Feb 8, 2013 20:18:09 GMT
Same as i found. :-) I'm assuming Tom just made a typing error
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Post by celticar on Feb 8, 2013 20:33:45 GMT
Ruby Ada Silman JOYNER B 1899. Milton under Wychwood. Oxford. Living in 1911 at Milton under Wychwood. Oxford.
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Post by tominera on Feb 8, 2013 21:32:53 GMT
Hi, Just another Senior Moment which I have now amended---Soree I hope Marian answers your queries as I do not have the info necessary--Tom
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Post by celticar on Feb 8, 2013 22:16:47 GMT
Dont worry about it Tom. Good way to get us lot to cross referance info
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Post by marianjames on Feb 8, 2013 22:27:43 GMT
Hi Marian here, the George James who is buried in Wrexham is the same as George Leonard James - the middle name was not used as the cemetery & he did marry Ruby & she disappeared when the children were little. He was 45yrs old when he & Ruby married.He is down as George Leo James. I was wondering where he came from & his mothers name as I know who his father was. He lived @ Frog Lane on the marriage cert. The 1911 Census the address is Holt & Frog Lane is in Holt so it makes sense to me.
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Post by marianjames on Feb 8, 2013 22:31:09 GMT
Thanks - Marian
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Post by celticar on Feb 9, 2013 16:14:27 GMT
Hello there Could you give us his father's name to help narrow the cross referances please ? And his wife disappeared ?? Any more info on that ?
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Post by eluned on Feb 9, 2013 22:39:17 GMT
Wrexham Ruabon Road Cemetery GEORGE JAMES 1954 76 MAELOR GENERAL HOSPITAL 24/08/1954 Plot 13195 No one else in that plot. Born abt 1878. What was his occupation and also that of his father please? eluned
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Post by marianjames on Feb 10, 2013 0:12:21 GMT
Hi - his job was a market gardener & his fathers name was Walter Leonard James, b 7th March 1864, Bromsgrove. Went to the U.S.A. Napa, California.Was in the U S Army for 8yrs, enlisted 16th Jan 1896 D 19th March 1945, buried @ The Golden Gate National Cemetery. Mothers maiden name was Russell, had a son over there - Walter C. James, 563, 29th Ave. San Fransisco. Was in a veterans home in Napa.When he lived in Bromsgrove they had servants, big house, was on the census until 1881, arrived in the U.S.A. in 1884, age of 1st marriage was 21yrs. In 1930 he was a widow, & was in the Spanish American War. At home he was a clerk, but on the marriage cert of George Leo James says he was a Ships Steward. He came home a few times to visit. Now back to the missing wife Ruby - I was told that she disappeared when the eldest child was about 4 or 5. I know that the 2 girls were looked after by a Mrs Powell & not sure were the 3 boys went but as soon as he could the eldest joined the army. Later I was told that she ran away with someone from the circus, & that George married again. Hope you follow all that Thanks Marian.
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Post by celticar on Feb 10, 2013 8:58:09 GMT
Can you confirm the childrens names please. I found the following for Wrexham area on Free BMD Leonard R James b 1921. George A James b 1922 Eric L James b 1924 Dilys James b 1927 Joan b 1929 So if this is them, than the boys were born out of Wedlock, And eldest was 8 to 9 if she disappeared straight after birth of youngest. Break down may be ?? Could she have been sent to a Mental institute and story made up to cover fact ?? Was the norm by many families to make stories up. One possible idea. And If eldest joined Army it would have been as boy soldier just a few years before War or joined up as War declared and would have been around 18. As for George's dad, something not right. If we go by dates then Walter was 14 when George born if we go by death age and 16/17 by marrage certificate ??
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Post by eluned on Feb 10, 2013 9:10:52 GMT
If we go by dates then Walter was 14 when George born if we go by death age and 16/17 by marrage certificate ?? Because we don't want to go climbing the wrong tree, may I ask if you are positive that the George buried was indeed your grandfather or is it that you think he could be the correct one? Do you know your grandfather's birthday (not necessarily the year) ?
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Post by eluned on Feb 10, 2013 10:38:22 GMT
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Post by eluned on Feb 10, 2013 12:11:16 GMT
Hi - his fathers name was Walter Leonard James, b 7th March 1864, Bromsgrove. Went to the U.S.A. Napa, California.Was in the U S Army for 8yrs, enlisted 16th Jan 1896 D 19th March 1945, buried @ The Golden Gate National Cemetery. Mothers maiden name was Russell, had a son over there - Walter C. James, 563, 29th Ave. San Fransisco. Was in a veterans home in Napa.When he lived in Bromsgrove they had servants, big house, was on the census until 1881, arrived in the U.S.A. in 1884, age of 1st marriage was 21yrs. In 1930 he was a widow, & was in the Spanish American War. At home he was a clerk, but on the marriage cert of George Leo James says he was a Ships Steward. He came home a few times to visit. Thanks Marian. Sorry about all the questions Marian...but how did you trace Walter? You got his name from George's marriage certificate and his job as Ships Steward so we have to assume this is fact but may not be!!! Did you have any other evidence to confirm you traced the correct one to USA etc?
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Post by celticar on Feb 10, 2013 12:17:52 GMT
If we go by dates then Walter was 14 when George born if we go by death age and 16/17 by marrage certificate ?? Because we don't want to go climbing the wrong tree, may I ask if you are positive that the George buried was indeed your grandfather or is it that you think he could be the correct one? Do you know your grandfather's birthday (not necessarily the year) ? Well said Seem to many out of place pieces. How about starting from Scratch with your father's bith certificate to confirm his mother and father's name and occupaion and go back slowly from there
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Post by eluned on Feb 10, 2013 13:50:54 GMT
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Post by celticar on Feb 10, 2013 15:10:44 GMT
Just got round to reading this thread on link. They are raising the same questions and thinking in the same way as we are The facts are not matching.
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Post by eluned on Feb 10, 2013 16:45:31 GMT
There is a possible death registered Dacorum, Hertfordshire Ruby JOYNER Birth Date: 13 Jan 1899 Date of Registration: Sep 1985 Age at Death: 86 Looking for the obituary may state her close family, where she died and was buried/cremated.
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Post by marianjames on Feb 11, 2013 0:37:30 GMT
I traced Walter from the m cert of George & Ruby. You have the right names for the children etc. & it does seem that the 3 boys were born out of wedlock & she could have had a breakdown but not sure, just know what I have been told by my cousin. Are there ways of looking into mental hospitals?Yes the eldest boy was around 18. Went to India or there abouts & .was in the South Wales Borderers. Could Walter not have fathered a child at that age & ran away? Or on George's death who knows if that was his right age, I don't know his DOB. The only evidence I have that it is the right Walter that went to the U.S.A. is that I have a letter from the Veterans Home with info saying his D.O.B. as being 3:07:1864, being American the 3 & 7 are the other way around. Also place of b as England, & on the death index that his mothers maiden name as Russell. My aunt before she died told me where he was buried & I went to the Cemetery & they looked it up on their computer with map reference & I found the grave, there computer came up with my aunts name as well saying she was the owner. :)As for Ruby's death - would it not be a Joyner but a James? unless she went back to her maiden name. I thought her birthday to be in March of that year? Where can I get an obituary from please? Thanks for help, Marian.
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Post by eluned on Feb 11, 2013 8:33:30 GMT
I think we need to take this back to the beginning, as previously suggested, we think you have found some incorrect information and we need to establish what and where you went wrong I'm afraid. So one step at a time... Firstly, from what you are saying the children listed by celticar as below are the correct ones. Leonard R James b 1921. George A James b 1922 Eric L James b 1924 Dilys James b 1927 Joan b 1929 We therefore would assume, as they have George's surname, that George and Ruby possibly lived together prior to their marriage in 1926. Have you obtained a birth cert for any/all of the children, in particular any of the boys? This would give an address to enable a possible electoral register look up to see who was residing there. Do you know the family's religion, church or chapel so as to look for any baptisms please? eluned
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Post by marianjames on Feb 11, 2013 13:09:30 GMT
Hi, I have the birth cert of G A James & Joan James as living in Frog Lane, Holt, Wrexham. Don't know the religion.Marian.
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Post by eluned on Feb 11, 2013 14:28:08 GMT
Thank you I see you confirmed that the George James buried at Ruabon road was the correct one. An obituary can be found in a newspaper at Wrexham Archives. www.wrexham.gov.uk/english/heritage/archives/Where was he living at time of death please? Can I clarify with you in regard to George's occupation, was he always a market gardener? What was down on the marr cert please and on the birth certs too? I think you've probably found the correct census entry in Holt in 1911. So George James was born c.1878/1881 born Bristol. Father Walter Leonard James, a ship steward. eluned
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Post by eluned on Feb 11, 2013 14:46:58 GMT
With regard to Ruby... George and Ruby may have split up...divorce was expensive so they may have just parted. We need evidence to say what happened so I wouldn't at this point want to make any assumptions! The death I found could possibly be her and yes she could've chosen to use her maiden name. The death would be registered by a relative or friend that may not know the full facts Her birth was registered in the march quarter of 1899, not in the month of March. The quarter is Jan-Mar. You could send for the birth cert to check the birthday but as I said above, the info given when registering the death is only what the person who registered it thought it was so it isn't always correct. If it was me though, I would send for it to clarify not only dob but other info to carry on her side of the tree. You could send for her death cert, however, this may not tell you it is the Ruby you were looking for. You could also search for that obituary. Contact www.dacorum.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=2394To find when she disappeared, search in the electoral registers for Frog Lane, Hope and see when she no longer appears with George. Hope that helps some eluned
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Post by annedw on Feb 11, 2013 15:18:16 GMT
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Post by annedw on Feb 11, 2013 16:10:51 GMT
Posted the link earlier in thread OOps,
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Post by celticar on Feb 11, 2013 17:26:05 GMT
I Agree with eluned's points What would be most help full is that you say " that George married again". When and to whom ?? This would narrow things to a possible divorce or annulment if she had rushed off and had an affair. Also if you have George's marriage certificate, then the witness'es may give more info or clues Now lets look at Walter, as you can guess Marian, we were not happy about some of the info sounding right. So I've done a bit of digging Your right in 1881 census he is 16 and single, living at home and is a Clerk. The 1930 USA census states he arrived in USA in 1884 Looking at info he enlisted in 5th US Artilliery, Company H, as a Private. 11 Sept 1885 NY. And was discharged with ill health in Califonia Sept 10 1890. Rejoined NY, in 8 NY Infantry as a Private, 2 May 1898. Discharged 8th Nov 1898, ILL health. In 1922 aged 58, he was a widow and occupation was as a Clerk. And most important for reseach, he was a Catholic we know he visited UK in 1933 (if right person) he is shown returning to USA and is retired and aged 68.
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Post by marianjames on Feb 12, 2013 2:59:29 GMT
Thanks for the info I don't know who George married or when for the 2nd time. (or even the 3rd). The witness were William Henry Lucas & Elizabeth Stevens. I will have a search for an obituary for Ruby like you say @ a later date. How do I find the Electoral Register? Ruby went up from Chipping Norton to marry George so he might have been down that way with work! I have been in touch with someone who knew some of the family - but this was a few years ago. Her brother went after wards to find her & I think he stayed with them for a while. Marian.
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Post by eluned on Feb 12, 2013 8:13:44 GMT
Good morning Marian You will need to visit or contact Wrexham Archives to search in the electoral registers for the dates you require. www.wrexham.gov.uk/english/heritage/archives/I think you missed my question Marian.... Where was George living at time of death please?Can I clarify with you in regard to George's occupation, was he always a market gardener? What was down on the marr cert please and on the birth certs too?
There is a marriage in Sep 1/4 1931 Bersham Parish Church George James to Beatrice Jones A check in the PRs would confirm or rule it out! Eluned
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