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Post by kaybee on Apr 14, 2013 16:15:33 GMT
Hi I am researching our family tree for my father and we are planning to visit Wales next Easter. My fathers grandfather was Robert Thomas Jones b1874 Festiniog. He came to Glasgow around 1900 and married in 1904 Sara Ann Matthews who was also from Wales b1878 in Dowlais. His father is listed on his marriage certificate as Thomas Jones (farmer) m to Mary m.s. Hughes.I have found Roberts brother David Thomas b 1866 in the 1901 census living with his family at 22 Brymbo Rd Bwylch Gwyn in the 1911 census his son John William Jones was working at the plas Power Comp as a coal miner (filler), also his other son Robert Edward was listed at Manley Rd Coedpoeth working as a Collier filler.Another son David was listed at Bersham Rd New Broughton Wrexham .They could be working in the same mine as their father David as he was also a miner. It is also poss they could have worked at Talwrn Colliery. Do these addresses still exist and which would be the closest mines to them? Their sister Martha Jane seems to have been employed at the Bridgend Hotel LLangollen.Other siblings were Sara Elizabeth b1895, Pryce b1898 and Albert Henry b1902 I would be grateful for any info on these family members, mines or addresses as we plan to visit as many relevant sites as possible.Thank You.
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Post by eluned on Apr 14, 2013 18:45:57 GMT
Hi kaybee and welcome to the forum Here is the Bridge End Hotel if you haven't already located it! www.llangollen.com/bridgeend.htmlLinks to information in regard to some local pits www.leaderlive.co.uk/news/121667/lottery-grant-to-explore-former-mine-in-new-broughton-s-history.aspxwww.welshcoalmines.co.uk/Photo.htmVron Colliery:Location,Tanyfron Sunk:circa 1806 Closed:1943 The colliery was sunk around 1806 and experienced financial problems for a sustained period before it was purchased by the Broughton and Plas Power Coal Company for use as a pumping shaft. The coal pillars which supported the shafts were worked form Offa's Dyke level and operations here ceased in 1943 Plas Power Colliery :Location, Southsea Sunk:1875 The sinking of Plas Power Colliery commenced in 1875 with the first coal being wound in 1977. Even during the early phase of production at Plas Power, it was always considered a modern pit as its various owners were pioneers in the use of electricity underground. As well as this, the central generating system also provided electricity to Gatewen and Vron collieries. At its peak the colliery employed 1,099 men. In 1885 miners at Plas Power mobbed and drove away Irish workers at the colliery and the following year saw more riots and dispute over industrial relations. You will find 22 Brymbo Rd, Bwlchgwyn on Google streetview maps.google.co.uk/maps?client=firefox-a&hs=TLT&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.45175338,d.ZG4&biw=1280&bih=862&q=22+Brymbo+Road+Bwlchgwyn&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x487ac8c0784967e5:0x3aab3d9ae58788eb,22+Brymbo+Rd,+Bwlchgwyn,+Wrexham+LL11+5UA&gl=uk&sa=X&ei=MvlqUc-ZN6bQ7AbrrICwAw&ved=0CC0Q8gEwAA Hope this helps for starters!
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Post by kaybee on Apr 15, 2013 17:45:31 GMT
Thank you Eluned I appreciate the time taken to post a reply and will try the links. family research is a frustrating , time consuming,yet compelling subject and I cant wait to visit Wales and see where my family originated. Thanks again
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Post by eluned on Apr 15, 2013 21:36:27 GMT
Agree with you totally kaybee. Hard work but worth every minute! Good luck eluned
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Post by tominera on Apr 16, 2013 14:44:01 GMT
Hi, Here are some baptisms in Bwlchgwyn Church--- Parents David Thomas and Mary Jones 8 1 1886 David Thomas-----Waun---F=Collier 8 1 1886 Robert Edward-----Waun---F=Collier 22 1 1888 Martha Jane---20 Houses, Bwlchgwyn. F=Collier 14 6 1891 John William--20 Houses, Bwlchgwyn. F=Collier 17 7 1894 Sarah Elizabeth--Bwlchgwyn. F=Labourer 26 12 1915 Albert Henry---22 Brymbo Rd. Bwlchgwyn F=Labourer Another baptism Parents Albert Henry(collier)and Ethel Jones of 22 Brymbo Rd. was for their son Cecil on 18 12 1927 hope this helps will put another post on immediately after this---Tom
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Post by tominera on Apr 16, 2013 18:28:37 GMT
A marriage entry for Sarah Elizabeth and I also have a baptism entry for Martha Jane Jones of 22 Brymbo Rd as the only parent for two girls 26 12 1915(Maybe twins) Eveline Cobb and Phyllis Wane----Note the witness on the marriage--plenty of room for further research I am sure Good Luck Tom Attachments:
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Post by kaybee on Apr 16, 2013 19:24:02 GMT
Hi Tom WOW what a lot of information to be going on with Thank you so much K
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Post by eluned on Apr 17, 2013 7:01:35 GMT
Is there any specific look up/information required please kaybee? hth eluned
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Post by kaybee on Apr 21, 2013 16:34:08 GMT
Hi Eluned Robert Thomas moved to Glasgow and married a Sara ann Matthews who had also moved to the area from another part of Wales, they worked near each other and were put in touch as he could not speak any English and she could a little. Although I have found his brother I am unable to find any info on his parents.On their marriage certificate they are listed as Thomas Jones farmer and Mary Jones m.s. Hughes however on Roberts death cert in 1936 his father is listed as a quarryman. any info on Thomas Jones would be appreciated.
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Post by eluned on Apr 22, 2013 10:05:18 GMT
Hi Eluned Robert Thomas moved to Glasgow and married a Sara ann Matthews who had also moved to the area from another part of Wales, they worked near each other and were put in touch as he could not speak any English and she could a little. I think that my grandparents got together under similar circumstances in Yorkshire too but they may have known each other as children via school/chapel in Coedpoeth
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Post by eluned on Apr 23, 2013 20:58:10 GMT
Hi kaybee
Sorry if I've been slow to assist, just haven't had a moments peace!
I am posting the census info as reference.
1871 Llangollen Robt Jones 63 lab b.Bryneglwys Susan Jones 58 b.Llanelidan David T Jones 6 g.son b.Llangollen
1881 Queen St, Llangollen Robert Jones Head 75 lab b.Llantysilio, DEN Susan Jones wife 76 b.Llanelidan David Thomas Jones g.son 15 woolen factory hand b.Llangollen Martha Jane Jones g.daug 9 b.Festiniog CAE Robert Thomas Jones g.son 7 b.Festiniog CAE Wm. Henry Jones g.son 3 b.Llanelidan John Evans 74 lodger unm lab b.MGY
Marriage Jun 1/4 1883 Rhosymedre, St John David Thomas Jones to Mary Hooson Have you got this cert?
1891 15 Queen St, Llangollen Robert Jones 84 Susan Jones 80 Martha Jane Jones 19 neice Robert Thos Jones 18 nephew
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Post by eluned on Apr 24, 2013 7:57:42 GMT
Tricky! So not a parent in sight I think I would try and get as many clues from what info you already have... Marriage cert for David Thomas Jones to check any witness and father's name. Don't assume that he is Robert's brother....they are both listed as grandchildren but not necessarily brothers Have you been able to check PRs for baptisms?
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Post by annedw on Apr 24, 2013 13:07:06 GMT
1871 Llangollen Robt Jones 63 lab b.Bryneglwys Susan Jones 58 b.Llanelidan David T Jones 6 g.son b.LlangollenI can`t seem to find a good match for this couple in 1851 or 1861 ? I was hoping some children would be with them. www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/MER/Ffestiniog/index.htmlFfestiniog is in Merionethshire.
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Post by annedw on Apr 24, 2013 17:22:41 GMT
Marriage June 16th 1883 .Rhosymedre Church. David Thomas Jones 21 bachelor, engine driver. residence Llangollen, father Robert Jones labourer. Mary Hooson 20 spinster residence Bwlchgwyn. father Edward Hooson, labourer Both made their mark X Witnesses both signed. John Griffiths , Susannah Jones. Sorry about the quality, but it`s on Find my Past if you want it. Attachments:
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Post by annedw on Apr 24, 2013 17:33:07 GMT
So - the fathers on the marriages are Thomas and Robert, and here we have Robert and Susanna Jones with sons of the same names. If Robert Thomas Jones was born in 1874, then his father Thomas would have been about 23.
Could this be them ?? HO107; Piece: 2509; Folio: 474; Page: 14
1851 Bache, Llangollen Robert Jones 40 lab, b Denbigh Susanna Jones 35 b Denbigh David Jones son 9 b " Margaret Jones dau 7 b " Robert Jones son 4 b Llangollen Thomas Jones 7 months b Llangollen
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Post by annedw on Apr 24, 2013 19:09:48 GMT
This is a LONG SHOT and really needs to be all checked - BUT. Thomas Jones is born in the right place - Llangollen, and is in Ffestiniog working as a quarryman.
Presumably this is means Robert Thomas Jones` marriage. On their marriage certificate they are listed as Thomas Jones farmer and Mary Jones m.s. Hughes however on Roberts death cert in 1936 his father is listed as a quarryman. Does it state both parents names on the marriage certificate, I know Scottish records sometime have lot more details
1871 Ffestiniog NO RELATIONSHIPS GIVEN. RG10; Piece: 5697; Folio: 30; Page: 52 Robert Jones head 26 stonemason b Llangollen Elizabeth Jones wife 28 b " Thomas Jones lodger unm 19 quarryman b Llangollen John H Jones boarder 37 quarryman b ??
Free BMD Marriages Dec 1871 All on same page . No entries found for any of these names on Wales BMD, they are not covered. Evans Margaret Festiniog 11b 746 Hughes Mary Festiniog 11b 746 Jones Thomas Festiniog 11b 746 Rowlands Rowland Festiniog 11b 746
Only two births registered about the right time. Same entry, different sites. North Wales BMD 1872 ARDB1/20/E429 JONES Robert Thomas. Ffestiniog Gwynedd - Meirionnydd Area Register Office (Dolgellau) Free BMD Births Dec 1872 JONES Robert Thomas. Festiniog 11b 413
North Wales BMD Death 1874. JONES Robert Thomas. - Llanrug Gwynedd - Bangor CAED2/16/13 Free BMD has Deaths Sep 1874 aged 1.
So- this little boy died just before his namesake was born.
1874 ARDB1/22/E265 JONES Robert Thomas .Ffestiniog Gwynedd - Meirionnydd Area Register Office (Dolgellau) Free BMD Births Dec 1874 Jones Robert Thomas. Festiniog 11b 413
Free BMD Births Sep 1875 Jones Martha Jane. Festiniog 11b 428
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Post by eluned on Apr 24, 2013 19:32:05 GMT
Thank for the help Annedws and looking good I hope kaybee comes back soon.
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Post by annedw on Apr 25, 2013 12:32:30 GMT
Robert, Susan and the family are missing in 1861, I have had some information that may explain why.
The 1871 address is in Llangollen Fechan. The 1861 is missing for Llangollen Fechan(as well as Llangollen Fawr and Llangollen Abad). If they had already "moved" from Bache,you may not find them.
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Post by kaybee on Apr 26, 2013 19:27:17 GMT
Oh my goodness You guys are fantastic, I can't believe all the bother that you have gone to. I really appreciate all the time and effort that you have taken to assist me in my search. This is all new to me and I felt like I was coming upon a brick wall. Robert Thomas b1875 had 4 sons named William b 1917, Henry, Thomas and David b 1914 these seem to be family names which I why I assumed David was his brother,(newbie mistake) I have the certificate11b 413 but the parents name are wrong. On Robert Thomas' marriage cert 1904 to Sara Ann Matthews b 1878 his father is listed as Thomas Jones farmer, his mother as Mary Jones m.s. Hughes (dec) yet on his death cert 1936 his father is listed as Robert Thomas Jones quarryman. My father is also called Robert Thomas and believes this name was passed on for many generations. Sara Anns parents are listed as Henry Matthews (dec) Chainmaker and Margaret Matthews m.s. Williams. I will check out the information posted Thanks again for all help
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Post by annedw on Apr 26, 2013 21:35:49 GMT
I have the certificate11b 413 but the parents name are wrong.It a bit odd when the two entries , 1872 and 1874 have the same reference There`s another one that may be him. Volume:11b Page: 437 Robert Thomas Jones ,Date of Registration:,Jul-Aug-Sep 1875 Registration district: Festiniog Inferred County:Merionethshire I don`t know where you live, but I always find it`s best to ask when you order a certificate for the parents names to be checked against what you believe them to be. Usually the local registrar office will be more helpful than if you order from the GRO. If they are NOT what you expect them to be they will tell you, but they won`t actually give you the names. It will save you buying the wrong one. A problem with Jones This is the link for Gwynedd. www.gwynedd.gov.uk/gwy_doc.asp?cat=6726&doc=24310&language=1&p=1&c=1List of all areas. www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/regoff.html#842
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Post by kaybee on Apr 27, 2013 13:27:57 GMT
Thank you That is a really useful tip. I live on the west coast of Scotland and was under the impression that certs in England and Wales were only available from the GRO, had visions of ending up with piles of Jones certs. So will try out the local office link for other ref.
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Post by eluned on Apr 27, 2013 13:58:59 GMT
Yes the GRO isn't great when you're searching for the elusive John Jones ;D
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Post by kaybee on Apr 27, 2013 14:31:10 GMT
yes needles and haystacks spring to mind.
Also dad has the orig marriage and death certs and his grandfather is listed as Thomas on one and Robert Thomas on the other so he may have gone by both names.
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Post by kaybee on Apr 28, 2013 13:17:56 GMT
mmmm certainly need to be a bit of a Sherlock for this pastime, but worth it when a clue turns up something. I don't know how long Robert Thomas was here before being married but as he couldn't speak English I wonder if his bride translated for the marriage cert and something has got mixed up (we have no farmers in the family that any of the relatives can remember) but when he passed away they would have been together nearly 40 years and she would have known the family better hence his death cert having the name Robert Thomas for his father and his occupation as quarryman which would fit as RTJ junior was also a miner when he moved here. Also that would fit with Davids marriage cert listing his father as Robert Jones labourer perhaps a farm labourer at the time.
I have found an article in the 1893 Wrexham newspaper not sure if its my R.T.Jones but it mentions a person of that name being caught poaching rabbits at Goblin Well farm. Does any one know where that is?
Also does any one have a link to or know of any good books to purchase with historical maps of the area Thanks
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Post by kelly on Apr 28, 2013 23:57:31 GMT
plas power colliery shut in 1930's. Some of the buildings remain preserved. some of the plas power spoil heap remains alongside plas power hill southsea. this is not adjacent to plas power estate on A525 ruthin rd!! confusing or what. there were 2 talwrn collieries. talwrn 1 was approx opposite red lion inn talwrn rd. The other talwrn was called top talwrn colliery and was opposite willow rd junction just down talwrn rd. from 5 crosses inn. Collieries of denbighshire by george lerry is a very good history. I have a copy of an old map showing the sites of these mines. if you wat to send personal message / post i can let you have a copy when youy are in the area.
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Post by annedw on Apr 29, 2013 17:54:30 GMT
www.ceidiog.com/pr/news/denbigh-girls-school-that-grows-its-own-produces-a-bumper-crop/Goblin Well Farm. It`s in Denbigh, so quite a way from Llangollen and Ffestiniog. The farm took its name from the Goblin Tower, part of the medieval castle of Denbigh, which still stands sentinel above the school fields.
The original Goblin Farm stood where Stanley House, one of the school boarding houses, now stands but the present farmhouse is still the hub of a thriving business which contributes to school funds.
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Post by kaybee on Apr 30, 2013 17:49:00 GMT
thanks kelly and annedw thats useful information.
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Post by kaybee on May 27, 2013 13:58:10 GMT
Hi You have all been so helpful, I wanted to let you know of a bit of progress I have made (not easy with a Jones ) I contacted the local registar office where a helpful young man put me through to an equally helpful lady to which I explained that I had the 11b 413 cert which has the wrong parents names but is listed for two entries online, she asked the last address that I had and what the parents names were and she will contact me by email, so am waiting with bated breath to hope that she comes up trumps that I can get the correct cert and continue my search. I have come across an entry in the 1881 census for a Robert Jones widower living with a Thomas Jones and his family. On my RTJ marriage cert 1904 it states his mother Mary Hughes was dec. So it seems to fit, their last child William Henry was born 1878 so could she possibly have passed away in childbirth? not having much luck getting a death cert. The census address is Blaen Y Cae Festinog but I can only find a listing for a mine there. Were there miners rows on the site of the mine? Are there any burial records which would let me know where she is buried? Kind Regards to you all
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Post by kaybee on May 27, 2013 14:00:24 GMT
P.S. I have no need of the 11b 413 Birth Cert so if you know of anyone looking for it I am happy to pass it on.
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