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Post by sharonbrown2 on Mar 1, 2007 17:05:03 GMT
I have a guy who died in 1917, inquest into his death could not confirm whether death was by suicide or by accident. His wife believed it was suicide, but to this day, the family cannot confirm. I have been in contact with Coedpoeth Library in the hope that the records would have shown me where he was buried. Unfortunatley, to no avail. Would anyone happen to know if there was anywhere else he may have been buried at that time . I do know however, that there are two un-named graves in the Coedpoeth Cemetery, could one of these be my guy? Was possible sucide shamed upon in those days and maybe his wife didn't want him to have a proper burial? The tragic incident occurred down at Llidiart Fanny Bridge. I would like to know if anybody could enlighten me on how to find my chap's grave Thank You
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Post by annedw on Mar 1, 2007 20:25:28 GMT
Is it possible we could have his name, that would be a starting point.
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Post by shedevil on Mar 1, 2007 22:08:40 GMT
Can you give the Guys name and any other details that you have about him? I see that Annette has already asked this question there are some details of accidental deaths showing on the Minera Parish Records site www.the-red-zone.co.uk/ but I cannot remember what year they cease, I am hoping in the very near future (once i get my new holiday sheets from work) to take a trip into North Wales to update these records with some new entries Please remember that the more information given regarding tracing ancestors/people is beneficial no matter how trivial it may seem at the time Tracey
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Post by sharonbrown2 on Mar 2, 2007 8:16:08 GMT
Hi, My guy is William Williams born 1865 of Ruabon, son of Evan Williams and Margaret (nee Foulkes). William died 1917, Inquest was held in February of the same year and published in the Wrexham Advertiser on Saturday Feb 10th 1917. There is no evidence to suggest where he was buried. I have posted more info on the family history board relating to William Williams which may help. His parents are both buried at Coedpoeth Cemetery along with their children Evan Thomas, Abel, Pheobe and John Owen, but not William. Any help would be ever so grateful Thanks Sharon
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Post by llosgi calch on Mar 2, 2007 9:32:21 GMT
Croeso i'r bwrdd Sharon! I am certain there is an unmarked grave or two at Coedpoeth Cemetery containing suicides. However, I am unsure of what dates they are - but will make inquiries for you. Jas Admin.
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Post by sharonbrown2 on Mar 2, 2007 12:49:21 GMT
That would be great, thank you Sharon
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Post by annedw on Mar 2, 2007 22:39:21 GMT
Hi again Sharon, I don`t know what you looked for in the library, but I know that about five years ago when I started searching there was a burial register. the then Clerk, Iola Jones searched it for me and I found who I was looking for, and a lot more. I`m not certain if it that is still there, because last November I was at the cemetery ( Remembrance day ) and spoke to the caretaker , he told me to give him a ring if I ever wanted to find someone. I can`t imagine that even if a grave is unmarked that there would be no record of who is buried there,it also gave the name of the plot owner, my grandfather is in a grave with no head stone, but I know where he is. Lets see what LLosgi comes up with.
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Post by sharonbrown2 on Mar 3, 2007 9:24:43 GMT
Hello Annette, I did get in contact with Iola and she looked through the burial register, but could not find my William, which perhaps leads me to suggest he was in one of those un-named graves or buried elsewhere. Where I don't know? As he lived in Heol Llewellyn, one would automatically assume he would be buried at Coedpoeth Cemetery. I am also having problems finding his wife's grave, Mary Elizabeth, unfortunately I don't have a year for when she died. My aunty remembers herself being a little girl when her grandmother died, and in those days the coffin was sited in the house where all the family went to pay their respects. A memory my Aunt cannot forget. My aunt was born 1936, so the event may have occurred around 1940. Sharon
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Post by annedw on Mar 4, 2007 8:55:00 GMT
I wonder if he could be at Wrexham, Ruabon Road cemetery, a bit out of the way but worth a try. In Wrexham Museum there is a computerised burial index, as you have dates it would be easy enough for someone to search for you, the same index is at the Cemetery , in the lodge as you go through the gates. The men there are really helpful, and if he is there they will even take you to the grave. Good luck.
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Post by sharonbrown2 on Mar 4, 2007 9:12:17 GMT
Hello Annette, I've already checked there, but again a brick wall Sharon
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Post by shedevil on Mar 4, 2007 20:04:28 GMT
Just a little bit of information for anyone looking for burial places of relatives, It may have crossed some of your minds whether cremation had taken place for your ancestors in preference to Burial. I can only advise you that the only authorised crematoria in wrexham was not built until after 1963 and so anything before this date would be a burial in a local churchyard, Sorry Sharon its back to the drawing board, but If you know where this person was married it could give some indication as to the church he belonged. This may be of little use but from tracing my Irish Ancestors in York i do know that they were so poor that they could not afford a private burial even though they were catholics and although they were buried in unmarked graves with around 20 other people a reference to their burial would be held by the cemeteries registrar. If Williams parents lived in Ruabon is there any possibility he could be buried there ?
Tracey
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Post by sharonbrown2 on Mar 5, 2007 8:11:03 GMT
Hello Tracey, William Williams and Mary Elizabeth Evans (daughter of Enoch Evans and Elizabeth Davies) were married on 20th April 1891 at the Jerusalem Chapel in the District of Wrexham, where this chapel is, I don't know. But as William's parents and some of his siblings are buried at Coedpoeth Cemetery, I would have thought he would have also been buried there. One thing I haven't checked is whether he is in the family plot, but his name is not enscribed on the gravestone. I will have to look into that. Sharon
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Post by llosgi calch on Mar 5, 2007 10:20:55 GMT
.......One thing I haven't checked is whether he is in the family plot, but his name is not enscribed on the gravestone. I will have to look into that. Sharon I had a similar problem when undertaking my family ancestry. I had to confirm to myself that an ancestor was in a family plot. Whilst family story said he was, there was no inscription to confirm it. The burial was also in a Welsh methodist churchyard, and they did not keep records of burials (Only baptisms). I got around these obstacles by visiting the Wrecsam museum and looking through newspapers of the time, it took a little searching but I found two obituaries for my ancestor, one of which detailed the burial and confirmed my ancestor was indeed buried at that location. I therefore suggest you undertake a similar investigation - it may bear fruition..
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Post by annedw on Mar 5, 2007 14:40:53 GMT
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Post by sharonbrown2 on Mar 5, 2007 16:18:25 GMT
I have checked the newspapers on several occasions just to make sure I hadn't missed anything, but still unable to find an obituary of my William Williams. I know he wouldn't have been buried over Ruabon way, as even though he was born there, he only spent a short time there as himself and his parents Evan and Margaret had moved to Coedpoeth before 1881 and that's where William met his wife Mary Elizabeth Evans.I do know there is a chapel in Heol Llewellyn, Coedpoeth and as it is only down the road from where William and his wife Mary lived, I would assume this would have been the chapel where they worshipped. William's inquest was held at the Bethlehem chapel in Coedpoeth. Would you know if the two chapel's are of the same one and what religion did the chapel take? Sharon
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Post by shedevil on Mar 5, 2007 16:24:20 GMT
Bethlehem, Penygelli Congregationalists (English) 84 This was taken from Annettes post on Chapels in Minera Coedpoeth and Southsea
Tracey
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Post by sharonbrown2 on Mar 5, 2007 17:03:05 GMT
THE INQUEST OF WILLIAM WILLIAMS
THE JURY AND AN ALLEGED DANGEROUS PLACE
The tragic death of a collier married William Williams of 4 Llewellyn Road, Coedpoeth, was the subject of an inquiry conducted by Mr. Lloyd Kenrick, Coroner at the Bethlehem Chapel, Coedpoeth, on Monday morning. The Deceased who was until a few months ago, an inmate of the Denbigh Asylum, left his home at 8.20 on Monday morning, and shortly after, his body was seen by a little girl, lying in a neighbouring river known as the Llidiart Fanny Brook. The body bore signs of considerable injuries to the skull, and both forearms were broken. Mrs. Mary Elizabeth Williams, deceased widow, giving evidence of the identification, stated that the deceased was 52 years of age. He was formerly a collier, but was not working at the time of his death. He left the house about 8.10 on the Friday morning for a short walk before breakfast, which he did on the advise of Dr. Yates. About nine years ago, he met with a severe accident at the colliery and had been obliged to use crutches ever since. The Coroner: Had the accident had any effect on his brain? - It affected his nerves. Wa his mind affected? - He became very depressed in July last and he was taken to the Asylum on August 23rd Answering further questions, witness said her husband was discharged by the Authorities in November. The Coroner - Was it at your request? - No Sir. They sent to the relieving Officer saying that I could go for him anytime. A twelve year old girl Louie Griffiths said that she was going to the Vron School about 8.50 on Friday morning, and when crossing the Llidiart Fanny Bridge, spanning the brook, she noticed a pair of crutches placed against the wall. Upon looking over, she saw a man lying in the brook. She told a little girl in the same class what she had seen and hurried to school and informed the Headmaster. John Herbert Edwards, tenant of the Vron Farm, said that a girl named Bessie Jones came to inform him on Friday morning that she had heard that there was a man's body lying in the brook. Upon proceeding to the spot, he saw two crutches leaning against the wall of the bridge, and also a man's body lying in the brook, face downwards with his head in the water and the rest of his body lying on the bank. Witness pulled him out, and discovered he was quite dead. There were terrible injuries on the man's head. After securing assistance the man's body was removed home. P.C. Joshua Salisbury stated that he arrived on the scene about 10.10 am, the body then having been placed on the bank. The man was dead, and upon examining the body he found a deep gaping wound in the head. His right arm was badly fractured and his left arm was broken, and his nose. Witness searched his pockets, and found a one penny treasury note, 8a 6d in silver, and 5d in copper. By the Coroner -The height of the drop from the bridge to the bed of the brook was about 25 feet. There was a big stone in the brook, and his opinion was that the deceased struck the stone in falling. The height of the bridge wall from the road was about 4 to 5 feet. Evidence was given by Mr R Hughes Jones, headmaster of Vron School, who upon receiving information from the girl Louie Griffiths, that there was a man lying in the brook, immediately sent a lad with a note, to the police, and proceeded to the spot himself calling at a number of places for assistance. Witness confirmed previous statements as to the position of the body, etc. When he came up from the brook witness stood between the crutches, which were leaning against the wall, and remarked that the height of the Balustrade at that particular spot was barely 5 foot, although on both sides it was between 4 and 5 feet, and had the deceased suffered from illness at the time and leant forward against the wall he could easily have toppled over. Witness considered that the wall as dangerous especially to children. The Coroner - Do you think that attention should be called to the wall? - Yes Sir. The deceased man's wife, in reply to the Coroner, stated further that her husband before being taken to the Asylum attempted to take his own life, by cutting his throat. The Coroner, in summing up, remarked that there was no doubt that the deceased's death was caused by falling from the bridge to the river, but the Jury had to consider whether or not his injuries were caused intentionally. There was one matter which he wished to draw attention to, why the Authorities of Denbigh Asylum, a public institution maintained at a great Public expense, and with qualified medical men in attendance, should have allowed the deceased to be discharged within so short a time. Apparently he was sent there upon medical advice, because he presumed the deceased was not capable of taking care of himself, having regard to the fact that he had already attempted to destroy his own life. That being so, it did seem rather strange that they should have discharged him so soon after Admission. The Authorities might have good reason for acting as they did, but he felt that it was his duty to refer to the fact. Subsequent events had shown, that it would have been very much wiser if the deceased had been detained at the Asylum. He mentioned that fact because it was an institution maintained at great public expense for the purpose of keeping under control those who could not exercise such control over themselves. The Jury, after some deliberation, returned a verdict to the effect that the deceased met his death by falling over a bridge, but that there was not sufficient evidence to show how he came to fall over, or to prove the state of his mind at the time. The Jury also added an order, calling attention to the dangerous condition of the wall at that spot. An expression of sympathy with the widow and family by the foreman, on behalf of the jury, was joined in by the Coroner Published Saturday, Feb 10th, 1917.
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Post by llosgi calch on Mar 5, 2007 19:06:03 GMT
Very interesting story Sharon, and if you dont mind - one I would like to include on the Coedpoeth Ancestry websection. (That is when I am reunited with broadband! )
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Post by sharonbrown2 on Mar 5, 2007 19:57:19 GMT
Yes, You are very welcome to include the info on William Williams' Inquest. I have also posted info on my maternal side, the "Smallwoods" which I have included on the Williams Family board by mistake. I think it should have gone onto the Brymbo message Board. Is there any way you could amend my error. Over the next few days I can post more info relating to the Smallwoods and perhaps add some photo's Sharon
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Post by sharonbrown2 on Mar 14, 2007 9:36:16 GMT
Would anybody know of where the birth/marriage/death records are held for the Bethlehem Chapel, Coedpoeth. I have searched the Flintshire Record Office but unfortunately they don't have them. Is the chapel still being used? I'm hoping to call at Coedpoeth tomorrow to do research, any info would be gratefully appreciated.
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Post by annedw on Mar 14, 2007 15:27:20 GMT
From my parents marriage certificate. Bethlehem Congregational Church. Smithy Lane, Penygelli. I am sure this is the one at the end of Llewelyn Road. My Mum was living there at the time and my Dads family also lived there.
There are a few Non Conformist registers at A N Palmer Centre in Wrexham, but it seems none for Bethleham. Bethania Welsh Baptist Chapel, Ruabon, 1894-1990, Brake Methodist Chapel, Moss, 1855-2001, Wesleyan Methodist Church, Coedpoeth circuit, 1859-2001, Wrexham Diocese, Roman Catholic Church, 1828-1930,
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Post by sharonbrown2 on Mar 14, 2007 19:46:25 GMT
Oh well, I will see what I can find at the cemetery tomorrow. I'm also hoping to call at the Pentre Broughton Riding Stables while I'm up that way, I will let you know whether there is any success Sharon
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