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Post by scouser on Sept 15, 2008 23:26:54 GMT
Hi, newbie here.
My Great grandfather was Jewish. His name was Moses Levensohon. He married Sarah Roberts in 1905 (residing in Wrexham at the time). The only information I have is from her marriage cert which states her father was John Roberts a Collier in North Wales and that she was 32 years old. The 1901 cencus has her as a servent to my Great Grandfather living in Wrexham. I researched all John Roberts who were colliers with a daughter of Sarah from North Wales and came up with only one that matched my Sarah Roberst birth year Circa 1874. I obtained her birth cert from this information and it says she was born in Coedpoeth, Bersham. I traced her family in the 1891 and 1881 cencus and I see that her father was born in Maesfan, Flintshire and her mother Alice was born in Adwyr.
So the research looks like this:
John Roberts, Maesfan, Flints m Alice Roberts of Adwyr. He was a collier and their daughter Sarah was born Cir 1874 in Coedpoeth.
I know this is very scant information but any information or help would be greatly appreciated in regards to tracing my Roberts family in Coedpoeth.
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Post by sceptrelady on Sept 16, 2008 0:03:41 GMT
Hi scouser/newbie
Northwales BMD has a possible marriage in 1856 at Wrexham St Giles Wrexham registration ref C45/05/5 John Roberts Alice Roberts
the only Alice Roberts I can see in the Minera baptisms circa 1836 was: Nov 2, 1834, father William (mason) mother Jane abode MI (Minera)
If her birth year was 1836 or 1837 from the censuses she may well have been baptized non-c or somewhere else.
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Post by annedw on Sept 16, 2008 6:21:28 GMT
Hi Scouser, In case you wonder why I`m putting the census records down when you already have them , it will help others to find them Ok found 1901 living at 44 Princess Street Wrexham. Moses Levensohon . head single 35 Manager Jewellry Traveler b Russia. Abe Levensohon 2 1/2 b Wrexham Sarah Roberts single servant 29 house keeper b North Wales I know Princess Street, and the house is probably still standing. 1891 Tudor St Coedpoeth. John Roberts 60 Maeshafn. Alice Roberts 54 b Adwyclawdd Robert " 23 single son Sarah " 18 dau George " 13 son John Charles 4 grand child Mary Elizabeth 3 " 1881 Tudor Row , Nant Road, John Roberts 53 b Flintshire Alice Roberts 44 b Adwyclawdd William Roberts 22 John Roberts 15 Robert Roberts 14 Margt. Anne Roberts 11 Alice Selina Roberts 9 Sarah Roberts 7 George Roberts 3
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Post by annedw on Sept 16, 2008 12:34:53 GMT
Wern Chapel baptisms. William Roberts s/o John Roberts collier and Alice Roberts ( maiden) Adwy born 1st April 1859 bapt 12th June 1859 . This matches William in 1881, its the only baptism in Wern with these parents. He seems to have been the eldest child and Alice was about 21 when he was born. Looks like Heathers marriage is the right one. Alice would have been about 18. In 1861 Catherine is 4 so born c 1857. Again the right date for marriage in 1856. 1871 This may be the family, Sarah hasn`t been born yet. Trouble is John is born Llanfere ? Denbs. but Alice is always a few years younger so it could be right. I`m not too sure . In this record Catherine is missing, but there is a match for her working as a servant in Rhosberse. , she is born Adwy clawdd. Penygelli. John Roberts 43 b Llanfere Denbs Alice Roberts 35 b Bersham William Roberts 12 b Bersham Mary Roberts 9 b Bersham John Roberts 5 b Bersham Robert Roberts 3 b Bersham Margaret Roberts 1 b Bersham 1861 Penygelli Road. John Roberts 30 coalminer b Flintshire Alice Roberts 25 b Wrexham Catherine Roberts 4 b Wrexham William Roberts 2 b Wrexham As the marriage is in St Giles , I can check it out for you when go to Wrexham museum again, hopefully it will give us Alice`s fathers name. That`s if you want me to, or would you rather send for the certificate yourself. That will confirm if this if Alice in 1851 1841 for this area doesn`t exist sadly , so we can`t go any further back at the moment. 1851 Adwy Clawdd. Evan Roberts widower 44 laborer b Llanichenydd Denbs( need some help ) Mary Roberts 21 servant b Llangar " " John Roberts 17 collier b Llangar " " Alice Roberts 14 b Wrexham " " Catherine Roberts 10 b Wrexham " " Hugh Roberts 5 b Wrexham. " " Just a little bit more. This may be him. By 1861 Evan has remarried and is living in Rhosberse Street , Evan Roberts 54 collier b Llantisilio Denbighshire Ann Roberts wife 59 b Wrexham Hugh Roberts son 15 labourer agricultural b Wrexham. Whichever way you need to get that marriage , and I can`t see the children in Minera Bapt. so are they in St Giles also.
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Post by scouser on Sept 16, 2008 17:17:27 GMT
Guys, 1st let me appologise for the late response. I really appeciate your input and I am so impressed that there are people like you guys around even bothereing to do the lookups for people they dont know! I can't express how grateful I am. For this alone I am going to donate.
As it happens I do have some this information already. You are correct, I should have provided more information so I will try to give you everything I have so far and also how I have derrived to my conclusions. You will see that my conclusions are not without the possibility of error and hence me finding your great site and posting my request for help.
For Sarah's parents John and Alice, I have been able to track them in all the cencus' going back to before they were married in 1856. In fact for John I can even go back to 1851 cencus. Sceptrelady you are correct this is their marriage of 1856. And Annedw you are also correct with the cencus data. But this is only useful if John and Alice where her parents. And that's where the rub lies. I am not fully convinced. So that you all know what data I have so far I will try to list it in the order I obtained it. If you see a flaw in my theory/research, or indeed you can help me prove it otherwise, please do tell me.
Here's the flow of my research:
1. Marriage by religion of Sarah Roberts and Moses Levensohon (my GGPs) I obtained their record from the synagogue records in Liverpool. I suspect they married in Liverpool because there wasn't a synagogue in Wrexham although I am quite amazed that they were able to marry in a synagogue at all given that I know that the synagougue where they married was extremely strict and would only have performed the marriage service if both parties were Jewish! And the Rabbi who married them was renowned to be particularly strict in this regard. So, based on this, one would assume that Sarah was Jewish. And in fact this has caused some great concern with my family as you can imagine, given that according to Jewish law, the religion is passed down via the mother not the father. Nevertheless, their marriage record shows that Sarah was the daughter of a John Roberts a Collier. Apart from Roberts being an unlikely Jewish surname, he was a collier - an unlikely trade. I guess it's possible but unlikely. Anyway, Using this data and information from my living grandmother of 97 who is Widow to Mordecai Levensohon (my GF and son of Sarah and Moses), I found their civil marriage record and obtained it from Wrexham Records Office. It reads as follows: May 5 1905 Married at Hope Place Synagogue, Liverpool Moses Levensohon......Russia...(I wont describe more of his details as I have his genealogy data)
Sarah Roberts 32yrs, Spinster, 44 Princess St Wrexham, Father John Roberts, Collier
Witnesses: The Rabbi that married them, and Mr. N Goodman
2. WIth no other formal data available I searched the cencus and found the same data as you in the 1901 cencus. Note that in 1901 they were not married yet but they lived together at 44 Princess St, Wrexham. The house still stands and I have visited it. The cencus shows Sarah as a servant/Housekeeper from North Wales. It also details their 1st son Abe also born in North Wales (actually Wrexham). So now the plot thickens. I know that Sarah is daughter to John Roberts Collier and that she was born Cir 1872/3 in North Wales.
3. I found the 1891 cencus for Moses but dont see Sarah on it. Interestingly he lived at No. 1 Brynyffynon in Wrexham. It is my understanding that this is and still is, a formidable property in Wrexham. It eventualy became part of the Town/Guild Hall in Wrexham.
4. Given the known details I searched a Birth record. I found only two records for a Sarah Roberts born Cir 1873/74 with father John a Collier. They are both for 1874 but only one record shows the father as a collier. The other is a farmer. So I chose John the collier.
5. I then obtained this birth cert. It shows that Sarah's mother was named Alice Roberts formerly Roberts. It also shows that Sarah was born 23 May 1874 in Coedpoeth, Bersham....and her father is as expected a collier.
6. Using this information I have traced John and Alice's family back through the 1891, 1881 and 1871 cencus'. I am also able to trace John back to the 1851 cencus. And I see Sarah appear on the 1881 cencus at 7 years of age.
7. I further obtained John and Alice' marriage cert. It reads:
2nd Feb 1856, Parish of Wrexham Parish Church
John Roberts, 22, Bachelor, Collier, Residence Adwyr Clawdd, Father William Roberts, Minor
Sarah Roberts, 20, Spinster, -, Residence Adwyr Clawdd, Father Evan Roberts, Collier
Witnesses: William Davies, Margaret Roberts
The thing is, this is all speculation as I have no proof that John and Alice are her parents albeit it is highly likely. If I search the entire birth records for a Sarah Roberts b 1873/74 I find mega amounts of them. But the cencus only shows 6 that are contenders (assuming a Sarah Roberts and not a Sarah X Roberts). Of those 6 cencus records 3 are coal miners. Of the 3, 2 of them are in Cardiganshire. Could be I suppose but is that classed as North Wales? If not then I am down to 1 cencus record which is for John and Alice in Wrexham. But this is just speculation. WHat's your thoughts on this?
Some obeservations and questions: 1) What's the difference between a Collier and a Minor? 2) I see on the 1881 Cencus that the address is "Nant Road Tudow Row" and Sarah's Birth cert has her birth as 23 May 1874. But I see a Sarah baptism to John Roberts in red-zone's Salem Chapel Baptism register dated 28 May 1874 to mother Ann Address Nant. Could this be a mistaken transcription? Should it read 23 May 1874 mother Alice? Just an idea anyway.
Finally, I have an open account (world search) on Ancestry until the end of the month. If you want me to do any lookups in return for your help, please do PM me.
Many thanks again
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Post by annedw on Sept 16, 2008 19:13:54 GMT
Minor , it will be miner, same as collier , both occupations in coal mines. Very common in this area. Salem registers were transcribed my myself and Shedevil, they were cross checked before printing and putting on the site, so I`m 99.99 % certain they are correct. For the entry of Sarah , that is the date of birth, there was no date of baptism. These registers are very confusing sometimes. Sometimes the writing is quite difficult to make out, especially the older registers. Nant covers a large area, the whole of the part of Coedpoeth leading down to the river was known as Nant, as it still is today. Brynyffynon was a large House on Regent Street,a Chapel was built nearby in 1905 with the same name. Probably meant `hill of the well` after the well close by on Brook Street. The Guildhall / Library is a large old building still standing in Queens Square. About five minutes walk from where Brynyffynon was. I would agree that it looks very much like Sarah in the census records is yours, and I can`t see any other way of proving it. I can check St Giles for a baptism , just in case. St Tudfils in Coedpoeth , records start at 1895/6 Abe, is he the correct one registered in Hull, but born in Wrexham , I know Moses was a travelling salesman, but would he take a very young infant with him From this site about Jews in Wales , referring to Bangor. www.jewishtelegraph.com/roots_129.htmlAt this point, it was the only synagogue along the North Wales coast, the nearest being Wrexham which was founded in 1890.
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Post by sceptrelady on Sept 16, 2008 21:11:41 GMT
Hi scouser
I'm curious - do you have a birth certificate for Abe Levensohon? I did a blanket search for any Abrahams born in Wrexham and only one came up - an Abraham Hayward Sep 1898 (11b 245)
Re your comments on the rabbi not marrying them unless Sarah was of the Jewish faith. Could she not have taken instruction and converted prior to the marriage - thus making it permissible? If so, would there be a record of this at the synagogue?
Heather
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Post by scouser on Sept 16, 2008 21:50:16 GMT
Sheesh! you guys are good! Many thanks for the Evan Roberts hint. For some odd reason I had not researched his line. This is great stuff. The idea behind the Salem transcription and Sarah/Nant link was just a punt. Having done many transcriptions I know what you mean by they are hard to read. Re Abe Levenson. This is not my Abe. I have his birth cert and the birth was registered in Wrexham. He was b. 29 Nov 1898 at 44 Princess St. But interesting coincidence. It would be great if you could check the St Giles for a baptism of Sarah. Really appreciate it. As you can see its d**n hard to reconcile given the little formal info I have. Your spot on re Sarah taking instruction to become a Jew. My mum remembers her grandmother well and says she kept a very kosher home. Meaning she was very authodox. However, I am not yet able to find out any more details from the Bne-Brith (Jewish HQ in the UK) or JGSGB (Jewish Genealogy Society GB). I was brought up Jewish myself but married out of the faith over 25 years ago. My wife is Catholic. Even so, I used to run a web site called Liverpool Jewish Genealogy (ljgs) and I have transcribed all known jewish registers for Liverpool (my paternal family were based there and I was born there). Searching my own transcriptions, including synagogue instruction registers for those who take the Magia (change of faith), I cant see her mentioned. I also know that there was some (but rarely) Jewish miners in North Wales. It is possible but highly unlikely (based on no available references) that Sarah Roberts was Jewish. Still its an interesting twist to my research dont you think Re Brynyfynnon. As far as I can tell (from the 1901 cencus), his residece was the original Brynyfynnon. I just wonder if there are other records in regards to land/registry/lease/rent etc for the property which Moses eventually turned into the 1st Synagogue in Wrexham. Also, are there any school registers available for Coedpoeth? I have similar school records for my Levensohon family at Victoria School in Wrexham. Another task I need to do is see if I can link up my Roberts' to the other Coedpoeth Roberts on this site.
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Post by scouser on Sept 16, 2008 22:00:50 GMT
Some addition info:
Moses has a very large market stall in Wrexham Market. I have been told that the name Levensohon was laid in the tiles of the market floor. Not sure how true that is. In the Wrexham trade directories he shifts his residence between 6 Princess St and 44 Princess St. In one directory he is seen at both residences. Maybe No.6 was a shop. I dunno.
Since John was a collier, are there any collier/miner registers I could research?
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Post by annedw on Sept 16, 2008 22:45:49 GMT
You certainly seem to have all there is to find about Moses, where did you get it all ?? There are school records for Penygelli , I last saw them at the school about 4 years ago, they were more a diary of day to day happenings rather than a register. Not many names are mentioned. There were many coal mines in the area , so it would be hard to pinpoint which one John worked at.
I worked in Wrexham General Market in the 60s ( how old that makes me feel) but I was quite young ;D. I`m certain it wasn`t a tiled floor, I know because I had to sweep the bit in front of the shop I worked in, but of course it could have been covered. There was also the Butter market and the Butchers market, both much smaller. Getting back to Sarah, it`s odd that we can`t find baptisms for her siblings, if they were Non com , then there`s not much hope, there are not many still in existence, but I will try the Church.
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Post by annedw on Sept 17, 2008 17:22:50 GMT
Sarah is not in St Giles, This makes me think now that she was Nonconformist but which chapel I don’t know, anyway there are no registers I know of to check. I had a look in the Wrexham Advertizer to see if there were any records of the marriage, guessing that they came back to Wrexham, nothing there either. Anothing thing , Sarah had a sister Alice Selina, there are two with that name registered Wrexham 1871/72. Both had marriages registered 1891/97 Wrexham , both are civil marriages, again I`m thinking Non conformist.
The only bit of info I found was about Brynyffynnon House, it was thought to date back to the 17th c, It was sold about 1844 to Shrewsbury and Chester Railway Company who wanted to bring the railway to the middle of town. Then it formed the municipal buildings until 1883 when the Corporation bought the Old Grammar School. Brynyffynon House was on the Right hand side of Hope Street, going down from Regent St backing on to Hill Street and above the town well from where it got the name. It was demolished a long time ago. In one book about Wrexham, I think quite a modern one, it does say that it was the site of the first synagogue in Wrexham. So it was the Old Guildhall, but not the one we know as that now, that would be the one that was used as the Library. Confusing
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Post by tominera on Sept 17, 2008 19:28:31 GMT
Hi, Maybe this may help as I think they are somewhere near to the dates quoted. Buried in Coedpoeth Cemetery Plot 128 --John Roberts age 67y bur.26 8 1896;;;Alice Roberts age 69y bur. 1 7 1905;;; John Roberts age 62y bur. 7 4 1927(probably their son);;; Ann Roberts age 81y bur. 12 7 1948 (possibly his wife) The Lee Wetton IMG is No 8194 but it is a rather weatherbeaten headstone and gives little info. Good Luck Tom
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Post by scouser on Sept 17, 2008 20:22:27 GMT
annedw, many thanks for attempting the lookups. Really appreciate your help.
Pardon my nievety but what exactly is a noncomformist? Does it meannot conforming to the church....i.e, they may be another religion....Jewish maybe! But the marriage record for John and Alice says they married in the Wrexham parish church. Also how do I know if the marriage cert I have is civil or conformist? Confused. I note they were married by Banns by James Dixon Curater if that helps.
Re Brynyfinnon and the synagogue. Yes I researched this to no end. The following is from my notes:
The book "A History Of The Town Of Wrexham" by A. N. Palmer published in 1893 goes to great lengths to explain this property, its owners and inhabitants from the early 17th century. Unfortunatly however, it stops at 1883 only 8 years prior to when Moses lived there. The property is described by Palmer as being "once the largest house in the town". He also explains "when Charles the First came to Wrexham, October 7th, 1642, Sir Richard Lloyd received the King at his house of Brynyffynnon". It is of course, possible that Moses and his family were just renting this property but it is equally possible from the details of my research that he was a man of wealth and may have actually owned the property. There are other sections of the property inhabited by other parties in the census such as "The old Vicarage" and "The Old Guild Hall" but according to Palmer these are individual buildings belonging to Brynyffynnon. The main property itself was inhabited soley by the Levensohon's in 1891. It is interesting that according to the book A History of Wrexham" by A. H. Dodd first published in 1957, "The Jewish residents of Wrexham established their first Synagogue in the Old Guild Hall (Bryn Y Ffynon) Priory Street in 1894".
I think based on your observations and comments, that the house they lived in was the new Brynn Y ffynon. But the 1891 cencus is confusing as it shows them in the main house which follows the guild hall which I thought was a separate building but part of the same premesis.
tominera, this info defo coincides with the dates for John and Alice and their son John. Many thanks for this important information. It also probably means they lived in Coedpoeth until they died. Who is Lee Wetton and how do I obtain a copy of this image for my records.
Again, thank you all for your amazing help. What a great site!
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Post by eluned on Sept 17, 2008 21:15:25 GMT
Lee Wetton is a gentleman who has very kindly taken photos of MIs at various locations within Clwyd. www.clwyd-mi.co.uk/Use this link to search Coedpoeth Cemetery for the image no. provided in tominera's post.
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Post by scouser on Sept 17, 2008 21:22:27 GMT
Many thanks for the link. I see it needs a login/password to gain access. I have emailed lee.
Cheers
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Post by annedw on Sept 17, 2008 21:23:35 GMT
www.clwyd-mi.co.uk/Lee Wettons site, you have to download the file, but it is quite easy. Non conformist is the name given to the people that refused to conform with the doctrine of the Church. It was very big in the 18th century with many variations, Weslyan , Methodist, just two, At Wern there was a very famous preacher William Williams o Wern, he is buried there. This is a bit heavy going, but does tell a lot of the history. www.bbc.co.uk/wales/religion/sites/timeline/pages/religion_in_wales_8.shtmlI`m going to send you a PM soon.
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Post by eluned on Sept 17, 2008 21:30:09 GMT
Hi Annette, The wern William Willaims site you mention and give a link to doesn't open for me grrrr I always seem to have this with the bbc sites. Is this a browser problem anyone? Would have loved a look
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Post by scouser on Sept 17, 2008 21:45:43 GMT
That site is W3C approved (header reads DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN) so it should work on any browser, well OS based browser and mozilla (netscape). What sort of error you getting? What system you runnng? What browser? Version etc. Thanks annedw. Interesting reading. So basically, My roberts may have been an offshoot christian based religeon but not Anglican. Woah! a complicated read. Look forward to your PM. Note I am travelling tommorow so may be late in reply. Also I am fortunately going away on hols on Fri eve for a week so if I ignore any postings to this thread its because I am on the beach in Italy Really enjoyed bumping into you guys. A breath of fresh air after 10 years research. You just woke me up good and proper.
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Post by sceptrelady on Sept 18, 2008 9:08:53 GMT
I''ve just been re-reading this fascinating thread Scouser you asked about how you would tell where John & Alice Roberts married in 1856. It's on the certificate as Parish Church of Wrexham - which would be St. Giles Church of England/Wales i.e. Anglican faith. I looked up Evan Roberts c1807 in Llantysilio PRs - One in Jan 31 1801, s/o Morris & Margaret and a second Mar 8, 1812, s/o Ellis & Jane. So that's not much help but it is one less place to check. I think this is him in 1871 Adwyr clawdd Evan Roberts, 65, coal miner, born BALA Merioneth Ann Roberts, age 76, wife, born Talwrn Have also found a baptism for an Alice ROBERTS, born 05/07/1835, baptized 12/-7/1835 father Evan Roberts (lab), mother Ann (mpn Evans) Ty Newydd r Hafod Wen, Llanfihangel PSH The age isn't quite right for age 14 in 1871 but math wasn't always a strongpoint at census time. I only mention it because the Evan under discussion mentions Llantysilio & Bala as pob which are not far from Llanfihangel Glyn Myfyr. Heather ADDED PS one way of checking to see if this Alice is yours would be to obtain the birth certificate of Hugh Roberts, Wrexham Mar Qrtr 1846 (vol 27, page 296 per FreeBMD)
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Post by sceptrelady on Sept 18, 2008 9:34:52 GMT
One more possible sighting of Evan Roberts 1881 census at Bersham.
Evan ROBERTS, age 74, colliery labourer, born LLANFIHANGEL Hannah ROBERTS, age 68, wife, born Ruabon George ROBERTS, age 29, son, born Bersham
I don't see a George ROBERTS with Evan on previous censuses though if Evan married for a third time there are a couple of marriages to Hannahs in the 1870s - a Wynne & a Davies. Also could not see an obvious death of Ann(e) Roberts so this may not be the right Evan at all.
Also what looks like a death of this Evan in Mar Qrtr 1890 age 84, Wrexham 11b page 233.
HTH Heather
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Post by eluned on Sept 18, 2008 10:32:13 GMT
Hi Scouser, I sent a PM Just to say I thought the address rang a bell. Edward Kelly and Miriam nee Morris lived at 44 Princess street too. I have them there between 1915-1923 but maybe earlier.
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Post by annedw on Sept 18, 2008 12:15:04 GMT
Details are from Genuki, Coedpoeth came under the parish of Bersham, you can see that there quite a few denominations. Welsh Church Commission - County of Denbigh - The Statistics of the Nonconformist Churches for 1905" lists the following nonconformist places of worship in the Civil parish of Bersham : Numbers are the amount of adherents.Bethesda Baptists 98 Tabernacle, Coedpoeth Baptists Not stated Adwy Calvinistic Methodists 450 Bethel, Smelt Calvinistic Methodists 252 Coedpoeth Calvinistic Methodists (English language) 140 Nant yr Adwy Calvinistic Methodists 200 Southsea or Glan'rafon Calvinistic Methodists 186 Southsea Calvinistic Methodists (English language) 175 Bethlehem, Penygelli Congregationalists (English language) 84 Salem, Coedpoeth Congregationalists 283 Saron, Nant Congregationalists 150 Seion, Talwrn Congregationalists 235 Bathafarn, Talwrn Wesleyans 200 Not named Wesleyans (English language) 65 Horeb, Nant Wesleyans 170 Offa, Adwy Wesleyans (English language) 106 Rehoboth, Coedpoeth Wesleyans 554 Salem, Southsea Wesleyans 221 Not named, Coedpoeth Primitive Methodists (English language) 100 I`ve just noticed that in 1901 when Sarah is livng with Moses, in the language spoken column it `s entered as both. Now I think this rules out any chance that she was the daughter of a Jewish miner, where would she learn to speak`Cymraeg`. This thing about John Roberts place of birth has been bugging me. He is born Maeshafn , Flints , and Llanfere ?, Denbs. I think this should be Llanferres which is about 1 mile from Maeshafn. They are about 4 miles from Mold which IS in Flints, but the two places Maeshafn and Llanferres are in Denbs. After 1837 Ruthin District. Info from Genuki Population In 1831- the population was 705. In 1901- the population was 499. [Royal Commission on the Welsh Church - October 1907]So John might be easy to find then ;D ;D ;D
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Post by scouser on Sept 18, 2008 19:14:19 GMT
Hmmm... I notice the time is wrong on my postings. I wonder if you have Apache setup correctly Ok lets see where to start.... sceptrelady wrote:Interesting The marriage cert for John and Alice has her age as 20 on 2nd Feb 1856 that would put her as born in 1836. But the 1851 cencus has her as 14 years old putting her birth in 1837. I agree the maths was not so good then....and even now Question: where is Ty Newydd r Hafod Wen, Llanfihangel ? Is this anywhere near AdwryClwydd? Also what is PSH? I found in the 1871 living on his own at Cuckros Hall Evan Roberts 63, Pauper, Montomeryshire, Llandislio This would tie up with: 1861 Evan remarried and living in Rhosberse Street , Evan Roberts 54 collier b Llantisiio Ann Roberts wife 59 b Wrexham Hugh Roberts son 15 labourer agricultural b Wrexham. What do you think? But that would discount the 1881 you mentioned. tominera wrote:This is more than coincidence. It is defo the family. I got the image you mentioned from Lee Wetton's site and I also see on this very difficult to read image that they lived in "Tudor St". This ties exactly with the cunsus data. The headstone has a lot of Cymraeg on it. I will visit the site and see if I can write down what it says and hopefully someone here can transcribe it for me But many thanks for this and also to the link to Lee's site which I will investigate further. eluned wrote:That's more than interesting! I once spoke to a Jewish man (Jack Morris) in Liverpool who told me that his father (I think he meant grandfather) arrived in Liverpool late 1890's and when he arrived off the boat he asked if anyone knew Moses Levensohon. He was directed to Wrexham and apperently his father walked to Wrexham to meet him and settled there. I wonder if there is any connection in the Morris'. Maybe they lived together. Do you have earlier information on the Morris family at 44 Princess St? annedw wrote:Yes I noticed that too. I think its speaks for itself no pun intended. She was true Welsh and Anglican by the sounds of things. So this list of churches you mention. Is it worth me visiting them to see if I can research their registers? Do they alow one to do that? Or can they be accessed elsewhere....maybe FHL. It's all new to me this christian genealogy Re Llanfere: I think your spot on the nail with this. I found: 1851 cencus, Bosgriffith, Arddynwent Llanferras, Denbighshire (pre marriage to Alice) John Roberts, 22, Out Door Servant, Denbigh Llanferas He lived in a house with others. I think none family. Bah.... the trail goes cold at 1851 then.
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Post by eluned on Sept 18, 2008 19:44:41 GMT
Hi Scouser! Not got much on the Morris' sorry. Edward Kelly was my greatgrandma's brother. The Kelly family were Wesleyan, which may help Edward and Miriam are buried in Ruabon Rd cemetery, Wrexham. There is an online index to this with a search facility. www.wrexham.gov.uk/english/community/genealogy/cemeteries_search/CemeteriesIndexSearchForm.cfmThis is what I got... 1881 Unsure if this is ditto for Rock Tavern Robert Morris Head Widr 52 leadminer + Farmer 14acres B.Llandegla Robert " son un 27 leadminer B.Llanarmon Miriam " daur un 19 housekeeper b.Minera Llewelyn " son 14 gen lab b.Minera Caziah " daur 12 b.Minera Does any of this sound any good?
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Post by scouser on Sept 18, 2008 21:13:11 GMT
Sadly no. None of it relates to any of my research. Many thanks though.
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Post by annedw on Sept 19, 2008 16:45:51 GMT
Just a thought about Sarah being from North Wales rather than Adyw`r Clawdd. This copied from a Ancestry site Shortly before the census date, enumerators were provided with forms – called Schedules . The head of the house for each household was required to complete this form in time for the enumerator’s collection a few days later Even though Moses was an educated man and according to the 1891 census spoke 5 languages, I bet Welsh wasn`t one of them. Would it have been simpler for him just to enter North Wales instead of Adwy`r Clawdd, obviously he spoke English, but how well, and Welsh place names are a challenge to many English people even now,
CHAPELS Out of all the ones on the list I know of only 2 that are still used, and with very few members. Saron and Bethlehem. Bethlehem registers that exist are on Redzone, Saron as far as I know from a member has none surviving , there was a members register, but with no BMDs. There may be some held at The National Archives, Aberwyswyth Library and Bangor University Library are worth a try. Some Weslyan records are at Wrexham Museum , but start at 1888 - 1967.
THE LINK I know Scouser still wants to prove the link with Sarah of the Adwy with Sarah who married Moses. The only thought I have is - would she still have been accepted by her family even though changing religion to Jewish, were people that biased in those times. Perhaps there is a chance that she attended a funeral of a sibling and a remote chance there was an obituary that mentions Sarah Levensohon . John Roberts age 62y bur. 7 4 1927. Sarahs brother ? Would he have an obt, would she have attended , where was she living at that time.
THE CEMETERY There is the original cemetery burial register in Coedpoeth Counci offices. You have a name and a date, it will be simple to see who paid for the plot , how much and who is in it. Often there are people not on the headstone, but in this case I`m sure four was enough for one plot. ;D Sometimes though there are names on head stones and they`re not buried there. just an inscription in memory.
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Post by annedw on Sept 19, 2008 16:58:10 GMT
Scouser, we know that Abraham and Mordecai are sons of Sarah and Moses, what about Isaac and Jacob. Why would they wait all that time before marrying in May 5 1905 . Was it because of the strict Jewish rules , did Sarah have to go through a long period of ` conversion` to that religion. I know absolutely nothing about this and am just curious to the reason.
Births Mar 1899 LEVENSHON Abraham Wrexham Births Dec 1901 Levenshon Isaac Wrexham Births Mar 1905 Levenshon Jacob Wrexham Births Jun 1906 Levensohon Mordecai Mendel Wrexham Births Dec 1907 LEVENSOHON Leah Wrexham
Deaths Sep 1892 Levensohon Leah 19 Wrexham
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Post by annedw on Sept 19, 2008 17:22:39 GMT
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Post by scouser on Sept 27, 2008 15:08:23 GMT
Hi folks, I am back from my hols. There is a lot of comments to read up on so let me digest it all and get back to you some time tonight.
Cheers
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Post by scouser on Sept 28, 2008 10:42:24 GMT
Just a thought about Sarah being from North Wales rather than Adyw`r Clawdd. This copied from a Ancestry site Shortly before the census date, enumerators were provided with forms – called Schedules . The head of the house for each household was required to complete this form in time for the enumerator’s collection a few days later Even though Moses was an educated man and according to the 1891 census spoke 5 languages, I bet Welsh wasn`t one of them. Would it have been simpler for him just to enter North Wales instead of Adwy`r Clawdd, obviously he spoke English, but how well, and Welsh place names are a challenge to many English people even now, I see where your coming from here. If I read it correctly, your saying that since he was foreign and obviously doesn't know town names so well, or maybe could not pronounce Adwy'rClawdd, he just put down North Wales. Your comment on him speaking 5 languages, I looked at the cencus in detail. I think the comment with the parenthesis bracket outlines that "all 5 people" speak foreign language not that they al speak 5 languages. Moses probably spoke little English, fluent Russian and NO Welsh. CHAPELS Out of all the ones on the list I know of only 2 that are still used, and with very few members. Saron and Bethlehem. Bethlehem registers that exist are on Redzone, Saron as far as I know from a member has none surviving , there was a members register, but with no BMDs. There may be some held at The National Archives, Aberwyswyth Library and Bangor University Library are worth a try. Some Weslyan records are at Wrexham Museum , but start at 1888 - 1967. Are these the nonconformist churches you mention, Saron, Bethlehem? Hmmm..... they sound Jewish! THE LINK I know Scouser still wants to prove the link with Sarah of the Adwy with Sarah who married Moses. The only thought I have is - would she still have been accepted by her family even though changing religion to Jewish, were people that biased in those times. Perhaps there is a chance that she attended a funeral of a sibling and a remote chance there was an obituary that mentions Sarah Levensohon . John Roberts age 62y bur. 7 4 1927. Sarahs brother ? Would he have an obt, would she have attended , where was she living at that time. This is a great idea. I don't suppose anyone has any access to do lookups in the Wrexham Advisor or similar times papers? I am also interested to see if Moses had any advertisements in it too. But the obt link idea would be a real find and would certainly prove the link. THE CEMETERYThere is the original cemetery burial register in Coedpoeth Counci offices. You have a name and a date, it will be simple to see who paid for the plot , how much and who is in it. Often there are people not on the headstone, but in this case I`m sure four was enough for one plot. ;D Sometimes though there are names on head stones and they`re not buried there. just an inscription in memory. I think it's about time I paid Coedpoeth a visit again. Can you tell me where the cemetery is located? I will lookup the council office. Many thanks again for your comments. Extremely interesting stuff.
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