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Post by tominera on Oct 29, 2008 19:52:30 GMT
This couple are only on the fringe of my family tree but I believe I have put some wrong info in hence an appeal for help. I believe the marriage in Minera 22 12 1876 is the correct one for these two--William Williams aged 30 Yrs. Maes y Ffynnon, Minera. Blacksmith. Father Thomas Williams Carpenter- Marr.- Ellen Edwards aged 30 Yrs. New Brighton, Minera, Father John Edwards, Miner, Witnesses Owen Jones and Harriet Edwards. I think I have found her mother living at the same address White Lion, Minera in 1881 census --Elizabeth Edwards, aged 55 Yrs, born Llanferres( same as Ellen) with a son Llewelyn aged 26 Yrs. What I am really after now is the correct parents of these two if anyone can help me. I have found really big differences in age in Census reports after 1881 but feel the marriage ages are nearest to the truth. Any help appreciated as I do not have access to Census.
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Post by eluned on Oct 29, 2008 20:51:13 GMT
New Brighton 1881 Appears to be two households same address. Elizabeth Edwards H Wid 55 housekeeper B.Llanferras Llewellyn " son unm 26 leadminer b.Monmouthshire NK
William Williams H M 34 Blacksmith, b.Liverpool Ellen " W 34 b.DEN, Llanferras Thomas son 3 b.Minera Elizabeth daur 3 " Harriet daur 2mo "
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Post by tominera on Oct 29, 2008 22:09:14 GMT
Hi, I do have the 1881 Census ( Silly Me) And it appears the address applies to about 10 houses--White Lion must have been a row of houses or something like that. I have also found the reason (Hopefully) for Ellen,s different ages as it appears Ellen diappeared and William remarried in Minera March Qtr 1897 to Ann Williams--Have not looked this up yet so no proof so far--only theories. I agree the Blaenavon lot look promising and thanks for your help so far, Unable to think of anything else which could help sorry, Tom
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Post by tominera on Oct 29, 2008 22:31:15 GMT
Hi, Just looked at your records and found the second marriage in Minera 1 2 1897 which explains quite a lot but not who the parents are. William Williams (widower) no age blacksmith Smelt, Coedpoeth son of Thomas Williams(dec.) Carpenter Ann Williams (Spinster) Smelt, Coedpoeth dau. of John Williams(dec.) Witnesses- Hugh Williams & Catherine Blackwell Brilliant Site Bye Tom
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Post by eluned on Oct 30, 2008 10:10:02 GMT
Hi Tominera, You probably have the 1891, but just a point to note, Ellen has a different birth place Llanarmon. May not be important though. They are living at the Cross Foxes and I can list this if required.
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Post by tominera on Oct 30, 2008 11:31:49 GMT
Hi Both, Thanks for your input I have plenty to ponder and first I am wondering where Llewelyn was in 1861 if the rest is correct. I will also need to try and find a Tom Williams-carpenter when I have a chance. I also have another family now Ann Williams dau. of Hugh if you have any info I would be grateful.(I know some people are never satisfied!) Thanks again Tom
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Post by annedw on Oct 30, 2008 12:23:13 GMT
OOps, you will see one post has been altered, the Llewelyn I found in 1871, his mother was born in Brecknockshire ? should that be Breconshire. Anyway , she doesn`t seem to be the one in Minera later. Hope I havn`t confused you all.
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Post by eluned on Oct 30, 2008 12:27:11 GMT
Could this be the one? Its the only local one I can find that fits but I can't find them in 1871 1851 LlansannanRhydtanycae Thomas Williams H M 40 Wheelwright b.Llanfair, DEN Catharine " W M 43 b.St. Asaph Jane " daur 13 scholar at home b.Llansannan, DEN John " son 10 " b." Jerima " son 7 b." William " son 5 b.Liverpool ?Thomas " son 1 b.Llansannan 1861 BroughtonCernie Thomas Williams H M 50 Carpenter b.Llanfair DEN Jane " W M 42 B.Nantglyn DEN John " son unm 20 carpenter b.Llansannan Jerimiah " son 18 " b." William " son 15 coalminer b.Liverpool Thomas " son 12 b.DEN Catherine " 18mo b.Ruthin
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Post by eluned on Oct 30, 2008 13:14:55 GMT
I realise this William isn't a blacksmith but was thinking about my grandfather who I was told was a blacksmith but appears to have worked on the pit top, steelworks etc and eventually working in the blacksmiths shop at our local pit. He doesn't seem to have done an apprenticeship but worked with metal I also found a couple of William's with father Thomas in 1851 Liverpool. One Thomas a shipright and the other a sawyer. I shall check later census returns for further info on these shortly.
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Post by eluned on Oct 30, 2008 15:10:21 GMT
OK found these which look good! 1861 Toxteth Park50 Robertson Street Thomas Williams H M 52 lab. b.Ruthin Elizabeth " W M 50 b." John " son 29 bricklayers clerk b.Liverpool Ann " daur 16 dressmaker b." William " 12 sch. b." 1871 ditto addressThomas Williams H M 60 lab. b.Ruthin Elizabeth " W M 59 b.Mold William " 22 blacksmith b.Liverpool Robert Burton visitor unm 17 porter b.?Norfolk William son of the sawyer, see previous post, seems to take on an apprenticeship to become a shipwright so doesn't look like he is the one.
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Post by annedw on Oct 30, 2008 15:28:44 GMT
Back to Llewelyn Edwards 1871 aged 15 born and living in Abertillery , Aberwystyth with parents John and Elizabeth. 1881 he is 25 born Abertillery Mon and married living in Aberwystwyth His mother was not born in Denbs, my mistake. So this one can`t be the one in Minera 1881. I can`t trace another Llewelyn, mother Elizabeth at all prior to 1881. In fact I`m struggling to find Ellen b Llanferres at all apart from 1861. Edwards and Williams are so common names, Tom , why are you sure she was from Llanferres.?
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Post by eluned on Oct 30, 2008 15:39:31 GMT
Hi Both, I also have another family now Ann Williams dau. of Hugh if you have any info I would be grateful.(I know some people are never satisfied!) Thanks again Tom Going to put this on its own thread to make it easier to follow
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Post by eluned on Oct 30, 2008 17:33:03 GMT
OOps, you will see one post has been altered, the Llewelyn I found in 1871, his mother was born in Brecknockshire ? should that be Breconshire. Anyway , she doesn`t seem to be the one in Minera later. Hope I havn`t confused you all. You haven't confused me Annedw, cos I'm leaving this one to you ;D
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Post by tominera on Oct 30, 2008 18:37:52 GMT
The only reason I think they are born Llanferres is I have presumed they are the family living next door in 1881 census and that gives born llanferres--B****y amateur arent I?
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Post by eluned on Oct 30, 2008 19:00:53 GMT
Hi Tominera, You probably have the 1891, but just a point to note, Ellen has a different birth place Llanarmon. May not be important though. They are living at the Cross Foxes and I can list this if required. Perhaps I will list this anyway as it may help 1891 MineraCross Foxes William Williams H M 42 innkeeper/blacksmith b.Liverpool Ellen " W M 43 pub b.LlanarmonThomas Ll " son 14 sch, b.Minera Is he named after the uncle? Elizabeth " daur 14 sch, b.Minera Harriet A " daur 10 sch, b.Minera Robert Lloyd lodger 50 leadwasher b.Minera I had wondered if Llew and Elizabeth were just confusing the situation but the names do carry on to the next generation. Is it possible that Elizabeth could be step mother? Llew step brother?
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Post by annedw on Oct 31, 2008 18:54:05 GMT
I don`t mind admitting to all and sundry -- I really can`t get to grips with this OK Tom. I have 1881 Minera Elizabeth Edwards widow 55 housekeeper B Llanferras Llewelyn son 26 leadminer B Monmouthshire NK
The family living in Blaenavon in 1861, looks like this one in 1851.
1851 High Meadow Trevethin Monmouthshire John Edwards 30 coal miner b Rhes Y Cae. Flints Elizabeth wife 27 b Llanberis Derbyshire ( this is how it`s transcribed, but might be Llanferras Denbighshire. Daniel son 7 " " Ellen dau 5 " " Caroline dau 1 b Trevethin Mon. Piece- 2449 Folio - 572 Page- 22
Right age for Ellen aged 30 in 1876, again b Llanferres ( we think )
In 1861 Llanfoist ? Blaenavon John Edwards 45 ??stone mine b Holyhead Flints.( this looks more like Holywell Elizabeth wife 38 b Llanfeles (Llanferres? ) Denbs Ellen dau 15 b Llanfeles (Llanferres?) Daniel 17 "" Edward 9 b Llanover Mon Robert Hr ( Henry?) 7 b Llanfoist Mon Harriet 5 b Llanover Mon Isaac 3 b Llanfoist Mon Charles1b Llanfoist This is the ref . Piece 3995; Folio: 72; Page: 11 Ths writing is very poor and its hard to make out the words
Details below from Genuki LLANOVER, a parish in the upper division of the hundred of Abergavenny, county Monmouth, 4 miles S.E. of Abergavenny, its post town, and 7 from Pontypool. "LLANFOIST, a parish in the upper division of the hundred of Abergavenny, county Monmouth, 5 miles S.W. of Abergavenny, its post town, and 5 N.E. of Aberystwith. . Many of the inhabitants are employed in the mines.
TREVETHAN, a parish in the upper division of Abergavenny hundred, county Monmouth, 7 miles from Usk, and 1 mile from Pontypool. Many of the inhabitants are employed in the collieries, lime-pits,
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Post by tominera on Oct 31, 2008 19:22:46 GMT
Hi, I am more than pleased with all the info so far and suggest we leave it now as I know someone more closely related and maybe they will purchase some BMD,s and clarify some of it which I will post should this happen. Sighs all round!!(no smiley faces on my page ?) thanks everyone Tom
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Post by annedw on Nov 1, 2008 12:27:17 GMT
Phew ;D ;D ;D What I`ve done Tom is deleted one reply with Edwards in 1861 Blaenavon and put it together with the 1851 records for what looks like the same family. It`s help me from getting too confused. John POB dosn`t help does it, but they are very close together though.
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Post by tominera on Nov 1, 2008 20:14:53 GMT
HI Have not put this family in yet as I am not fully convinced until some BMD,s at a later stage, Still very grateful fo all your efforts, However I have put all the info for Ann Williams and her parents in as I feel quite confident you have the right family--Thanks Tom
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Post by tominera on Dec 3, 2008 21:53:17 GMT
Hi. I have now established reply No 7 is spot on and I have 1871, 1881, & 1891 for the family--however 1871 census The family are living in Eisteddfod Cottage, Gwynfryn but the Wife is now Eleanor age 49 b Llanbedr, Merionethshire. So it appears he is married to Catherine b 1808 St Asaph in 1841 & 1851 census Then Jane b 1819 Nantglyn in 1861 census and finally Eleanor b 1822 Llanbedr, Merionethshire. Did he have three wives is the problem ? Family research believes Eleanor was nee Lloyd but had a son Owen Jones aged 17 b Llanffrothen Merionethshire in the 1871 Census. All help welcomed- Tom PS I have the parents now of these two namely Thomas Williams b 1775 Penymynydd and Gwen Davies marr. 1 5 1804 but not the details
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Post by eluned on Dec 5, 2008 13:05:58 GMT
Hi Tominera, What I think is now required are the checking of church registers and /or purchases of certificates to establish some firm proof that this is now all correct. As you are checking it for someone else you probably dont want be running up costs which is perfectly understandable. You say " Family research believes Eleanor was nee Lloyd " has the person you mention proved this or is it info possible that this was information passed down the family? I have just checked 10yrs of marriages within Wrexham for Thomas Williams to an Ellen, (dedication !) for you and there are a few!!! but no Lloyds. Perhaps they didn't marry in Wrexham or she had a different surname, possibly a widow when she married Thomas I am sending you a PM.
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Post by tominera on Dec 5, 2008 19:35:28 GMT
Hi Lynn, I have just had another look at the tree I received and it does seem Ellen was probably a widow/or unmarried mother as she had a son Owen Jones aged 17 living with the family in 1871 census-sorry about that as I realise it should have been with the other info. I will try and follow up some of the leads next week. Thanks again for your help. Tom
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