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Post by tominera on Nov 21, 2008 22:05:47 GMT
HELP ! How can I establish if John Hughes c1800 Vrondeg married to Hannah Challoner c 1806 who have four children, Elizabeth 1827; Edward 1830; Thomas 1834; Noel 1836; all baptised in Wern are the same people who I have as my wifes G G Grandparents found in the 1851, 1861,& 1871 Census,s The son Michael 1836(Who I think was possibly Noel to start off with) has siblings younger than him and Hannah has died before 1871 and I believe John has died before 1881.---I have all the relevant details of Michael and Hannah, marr and death etc and siblings but not enough on John and Hannah to be certain they are the same people, not even their marriage so would appreciate some help Thanks Tom
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Post by eluned on Nov 21, 2008 22:32:10 GMT
Hi Tom, Finding John and Hannah's deaths/burials would help as the death certificates should give a possible abode if they died at home and it may say on Hannah "widow of..." hopefully John Hughes. Michael's marriage should reveal his age possibly but not always, his job and where he was living at the time. Also his father's name and occupation. I am guessing that these tally with the census?
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Post by eluned on Nov 21, 2008 22:43:33 GMT
I found bap at Wern for Mickel Hughes born 29/12/1836 bap26/3/1837 to John Hughes and Hannah Chaloner of Esclusham Above.
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Post by tominera on Nov 22, 2008 19:07:56 GMT
Thanks everyone--I will pursue the search in St Giles and Ruabon as soon as I get a chance.--I have not been able to establish any positive deaths or burials for John or Hannah yet apart from John being a widower in 1871. All the details on Michaels marriage in St Giles 12 12 1861 including Daniel his brother as a witness tally perfectly (age is given as full) Michael died 22 7 1911 aged 74 in Esc Above which again is a perfect match with census and birth etc. It did not say Michael was a widower on his daughters marriage in 1905 nor on his death certificate, I have not established his wife Mary Ann,s death yet.--- I will try and check Daniels marriage to Hannah Jones in Ruabon 8 9 1866 to see if his father is a widower at this time. I am pleased with the verification of Michaels baptism as I had entered it from somewhere and started to doubt myself when I saw a Noel with the same details on this site. Thanks again Tom
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Post by annedw on Nov 24, 2008 8:52:50 GMT
I checked the original page of the Wern register, and it`s one of those awkard ones. It does look like Noel, but then you realise it could also be Micel when you know of the later findings. The joys of transcribing
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Post by tominera on Nov 24, 2008 9:15:30 GMT
Hi, Thanks for the help and I have rechecked on the Parish Records on this site and it is definitely in as Noel but am very pleased it is actually the Michael that I am needing, Thanks Tom
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Post by annedw on Nov 24, 2008 9:53:06 GMT
There are some other Challoners in the Wern registers. I mistakenly thought my Thomas Wilcoxon was at the Machine House near the Five Crosses, and did some research before I found out it was another one in Caradoc Road.
Dunno if this lot are linked, and I don`t want to confuse things but here they are anyway. ;D ;D ;D
MACHINE HOUSE
The Machine House is shown on the 1845 tithe map of Minera, and is on land owned by John Burton Esquire, it is recognized as plot 292, described as a `house and garden` and is occupied by Joseph Chaloner, who is also the occupier of Tyr Celyn, which is also described as a house and garden. In 1841 a report was taken of the Working Conditions in Collieries, and a Joseph Chaloner is described as being a coal weigher at Plas Mostyn Colliery so presumably this would confirm that the Machine House was originally part of the Colliery Buildings. There are deeds of sale dated 1838 relating to Plas Mostyn Colliery, these are held at Ruthin Archives. Does this indicate that part of the colliery was sold off, and that this is when the Machine House became a dwelling place ?
In 1851 the occupants are Joseph Chaloner a widower, aged 75 clerk b about 1779, he was married presumably before 1809 and the birth of Ellinor to Sarah Phoenix, but she had died before 1851. The members of the household were --- Joseph Chaloner a widower, aged 75 clerk b about 1779, born Wrexham Ellinor unmarried daughter age 42 b Wrexham Maria “ age 33 b “ Anne “ age 24 b “ William Boyd, lodger age 29 born Cemais,Near Machynlleth, Montgomeryshire Minister at the Wern Independant Chapel Sarah Moss a servant age 16
It seems therefore that Joseph and his family were Non- conformist and they had a link with Wern Chapel . All of Joseph `s children were christened at Wern. His wife was Sarah Phoenix. Maria born 10 Jan 1813 chr 30 Jan 1813 Joseph born 10 April 1815 chr 14 May 1815 Joseph married Cornelia Bennett. in a civil marriage in 1845, Mary Ann born 24 Nov 1817 chr 7 Dec 1817 Sarah born 7 May 1822 chr 5 June 1822 Thomas born 9 May 1824. Ann born5 May 1826 chr 3 June 1826
RECORDS FOR WERN START 1808 In the Wern Chapel Graveyard register are the following entries, these are names of people that bought plots, but there are no dates and no information on who was buried in them. Cornelia Chaloner (wife of Joseph) of Pentre Fron RH side of path Row 5 grave 3 William Challoner, Minera. LH side of path Row 15 grave 17
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Post by tominera on Nov 24, 2008 20:04:29 GMT
HI,Thanks again for all this info--as soon as I find the marriage details I will try to find a connection and be really greatful for this headstart- Thanks Tom
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Post by tominera on Nov 27, 2008 19:29:34 GMT
Hi, I have failed to find the marriage in St Giles 1826-1830 ;)also Ruabon,Llangollen and Bangor on Dee in the PR,s in the Palmer Centre so cannot persue the "Challoners" just yet. I did establish John Hughes was Not a widower in 1866 but otherwise a very disappointing search. Tom
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Post by annedw on Nov 27, 2008 20:45:40 GMT
Perhaps the Hayes marriage index will turn up a match. It covers all parishes in Wales. There`s a copy in book form at CFHS centre in Cefn. I`m guessing you mean 1826/30 ;D ;D ;D.
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Post by tominera on Nov 28, 2008 17:39:42 GMT
Hi, You certainly guessed right--I will try to get to Cefn in the next two weeks and continue from there- I hope I have managed to correct date--I still do not have smiley faces for my replies or I would put a red one here--Bye Tom
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Post by tominera on Dec 11, 2008 21:15:48 GMT
Hi, Thanks for the face/now put a smiley one as I found the marriage today--St Giles Wrexham 4 2 1826 and the witnesses were Edward and Sarah Abraham. I will now try to develop the Challoners when I get a chance. Thanks again for your help Tom
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Post by annedw on Dec 11, 2008 22:13:12 GMT
Nice one Tom, ;D ;D ;D Now take a look at Wern baptisms. lots of children born to Edward and Sarah Abraham previously HUGHES. Could Sarah be John`s sister.
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Post by annedw on Dec 12, 2008 15:37:08 GMT
I had a `nosey` at the marriage today. 1826 Feb 4th St Giles John Hughes a bachelor and farmer otp. Hannah Challenor a spinster otp Both parties and witnesses made their mark. There was only one baptism of a Hannah between 1800 and 1812. Hannah Chalinor d/o Thomas miner of Bersham and Elizabeth. Bapt 1804 Dec 25 born 30th ( presumably Nov) Between 1769 and 1813 there were two marriages at St Giles. 1789 Oct 24 Thomas Chalenor otp and Elizabeth Davies otp Witts William Owens - Richard Meeson 1790 April 29 Thomas Chalenor and Mary Fisher Witts Charles Robertson - Richard Meeson John Hughes I `ll leave that one for you Tom ;D ;D ;D
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Post by tominera on Dec 12, 2008 18:48:57 GMT
Hi Annette, Thanks again for all your input-- I intend using the baptism/birth for Hannah and also the marr of Thomas and Elizabeth(I will try for a copy next week hopefully) Am I correct in thinking the baptism is in the Wern ? I have a contender for John Hughes thanks to Heather which I will put details on my next posting. I also think Sarah Abraham(nee Hughes is Toms Sister) I will need their marr. as well. Probably postpone Xmas this year--Bye Tom
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Post by annedw on Dec 12, 2008 18:55:02 GMT
OOps Tom, the baptism of Hannah was at St Giles, check your emails I`ve sent you a copy of the St Giles entry for the marriage of John and Hannah. .
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Post by tominera on Dec 12, 2008 19:18:36 GMT
Hi, Thanks again!! The John Hughes who is favourite is bap Feb 27 1802 (born 17th) son of Thomas (miner) and Mary abode Minera. I am going to take a look at Wern bap now Bye Tom
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Post by tominera on Dec 13, 2008 21:07:48 GMT
Hi, Having looked at the Wern bapt. and noting Edward Abraham & Sarah( nee Hughes) have 7 children, I will now try and find their marriage to see if she has same parents as John Hughes. I am presuming this is the logical way forward or is there a better one? I will use the same method starting in St Giles etc. as and when I can. Thanks Tom.
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Post by annedw on Dec 14, 2008 8:57:11 GMT
I would get the marriage first, just to make sure. I found what seem to be John Hughes and Sarah Abraham in 1851/61/71 . Sarah born c 1797 Vrondeg / Esclusham, John born c 1800 Vrondeg/ Esclusham
Wern Burials These could be yours. Hannah Hughes Wern 68 died 18 June 1870 buried 20th John Hughes Frondeg 80 died 14 April 1878 buried 19th Sarah Abraham Frondeg 76 died 8 Jan 1873 buried 11th Edward Abraham Frondeg buried 3 Dec 1842 ( no age) Sarah is a widow in 1851, youngest son Thomas born c 1839
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Post by tominera on Dec 14, 2008 18:30:43 GMT
Thanks Anette, I intend sending for the death certs for Hannah & John this week and will keep you informed as to how I get on Bye Tom.
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Post by tominera on Dec 18, 2008 21:32:33 GMT
HI, Have sent for death certs for John & Hannah and Reg Office have rung me today to confirm some details so they are now on their way. I found Sarah Hughes & Edward Abraham marr 19 2 1820 in St Giles in the Palmer Centre today and got a copy-- looks like same father so I am now ready for the Abrahams--Have got the baptisms ready to put in but not the Census details. Thanks again for all your help Bye Tom
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Post by jojo on Dec 19, 2008 20:09:12 GMT
Hi Tom
1851 Penyfron Esclusham Above HO107/2503/707/9 Sarah Abram, Head, Widow, age 53, farmer of 10 acres, born Denbighshire, Esclusham Above John Abram, son, unm, age 30, Lead Miner Ellis Abram, son, unm, age 18, Lead Miner Ann Abram, dau, unm, age 16, Farmers dau Thomas Abram, son, unm, age 12, Farmers son
1861 1 Tyln Wern? Esclusham Above RG9/4285/74/14 Sarah Abraham, Head, Widow, age 64 born Denbighshire Wrexham Sarah Abraham, dau, unm, age 33 Ellis Abraham, son, unm, age 28, Lead Miner Thomas Abraham, son, unm, age 23, Lead Miner
1871 Vrondeg Road, Esclusham Above RG10/5657/7/6 Sarah Abram, Head, Widow, age 74, born Vrondeg Denbs Sarah Abram, dau, un, age 44 Ellis Abram, son, un, age 38, Lead Miner Thomas Abram, son un, age 33, Lead Miner
Hope this helps Heather
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Post by tominera on Dec 19, 2008 20:16:34 GMT
Hi, That certainly helps and it will keep me busy later--Thanks a lot really appreciated Tom
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Post by tominera on Dec 22, 2008 18:04:06 GMT
Hi, I have now put all the census details in F/T and received Death certs for John & Hannah Hughes(nee Challinor) which are spot on with all the relevant details. I will now pursue the 2 marr. mentioned in reply 13 to see if I can identify which is mine or maybe the both are mine if Thomas remarried as one of the witnesses is on both marriages (possibly.) Seasons Greetings To Everyone on the site and thanks for all your help. Regards Tom
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