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Post by tudorstyle2003 on Sept 30, 2007 5:21:11 GMT
Hi I'm having trouble finding any records of my gg grandparents David and Annie(nee Jones) Davies. They don't appear to be on the 1901 census at all. The only one's I can find are from Cefn but they had a child, Edward Thomas and nobody in my family has heard of him. I did a bmd search to find that Annie and David were married in 1895 in Wrexham so they should be on the 1901 census. Their children were David W, Hannah E, Annie, Mary and ? Sarah who possibly died aged 12 although I can't find any record of a death. On my grandmother's(Annie) birth cert it says she was born in Bwlchgwyn, Brymbo, Wrexham. I think that my gg grandmother died in 1915 and my gg grandfather died in 1932. Apparently he was drunk when he was run over. Any help with this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Deb
ps My mum and uncle didn't recognise anything about the Davies from Kings Head Bwlchgwyn but thankyou anyway.
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Post by annedw on Oct 1, 2007 9:33:09 GMT
Can you give more detail , when was Annie born, and what was her fathers occupation. When were the other children born, would they be around in 1901. How old were David and Annie when they died, or even better if you know when they were born. There should be an inquest on David , perhaps it was reported in the paper, where did it happen. The more info on dates you can give might help to track them.
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Post by tudorstyle2003 on Oct 2, 2007 3:48:37 GMT
My grandmother's birth cert states that she was born 25 July 1902 at Bwlchgwyn, Brymbo, to Annie Davies(formerly Jones) and David Davies who was a Collier. My mum thinks that the other children were born close together. My uncle thought that there was another child named either Sarah or Beatrice who died at the age of 12. Again I can't find any record but then I don't know the children's birth dates. Dates that have been mentioned are 1915 which could be when Annie Davies died. Some information that came from mum's cousin was David Davies, deceased Miner, 26 March 1932, 6 Hillside Tan y Bryn(not sure of spelling) Brymbo. Unfortunately my mum's family don't seem to know a lot about their familiy's past which makes things difficult.
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Post by annedw on Oct 2, 2007 15:22:42 GMT
It looks like the local paper will be the best place to start for Davids death, and then it seems it`ll have to be parish records. You can start with the marriage in 1895, and see what turns up for the children. Lets hope they went to church and wern`t non conformist !!! I don`t suppose you would know about that The later registers are not transcribed but will be on microfilm, so take a bit longer to search.. Where are you living now, I guess you are not in this area.
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Post by annedw on Oct 2, 2007 16:59:18 GMT
Wrexham Civil Marriages 44 JONES ANNIE page 38 1894-1897 Wrexham Civil Marriages 44 DAVIES DAVID page 38 1894-1897 www.wrexham.gov.uk/english/index.htmI found these matching names on the Wrexham marriage index search, and it look very much as if David and Annie had a civil wedding, so either it was the register office or a chapel. Perhaps someone else can tell me if I`m right on this. Any way that means they won`t be in a church parish register. From the births index I have = DAVIES Annie Wrexham Wrexham C.B. WM/115/87 1902 This could be your Annie, which you already have, but it`s difficult trying to find which other Davies `s are yours, there are quite a few with similar names , some registered Wrexham and others Ruabon. On reading the info on David 1932, to me ( and I could be wrong ) it reads like details you find on a marriage certificate in the section where it gives the fathers details- deceased miner. If it was a death certificate it would have the cause if death, so maybe he died before 1932.
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Post by hilary on Oct 2, 2007 18:54:35 GMT
I think your family might be on the 1901 census at Bwlchgwyn, David Davies is 32 and his wife Ann is 34, he is a coal hewer, they are both born at Tryddyn, Mold and are living at 11 Wesley Road, they have one daughter, Mary Jane, who is 1, born Brymbo, leaving plenty of scope for some more children, born closely together.
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Post by hilary on Oct 2, 2007 19:11:32 GMT
If this is the family, then on the two previous census he is living in Flintshire, in Mold, with his parents Daniel and Mary, but his much older brother, Edward Davies, must be living elsewhere.
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Post by annedw on Oct 2, 2007 19:17:45 GMT
Great stuff Hilary, ;D from this I guess David was born about 1869. Also I found Births Dec 1899 Davies Mary Jane Wrexham 11b 250 Births Sep 1905 Davies Hannah Elizabeth Wrexham 11b 288 Births Mar 1909 Davies David William Wrexham 11b 2[14]5 Births Dec 1910 DAVIES David W Wrexham 11b 275 Of course we can`t be sure if these are the right children but the dates are about right. There are lots of Sarahs in between these years, but so many it`s impossible to guess which it could be. freebmd.rootsweb.com/
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Post by hilary on Oct 2, 2007 19:24:18 GMT
Yep, I checked the 1932, even allowing for an inquest to delay the record and found nothing. 1914 makes him young, but that wasn't unusual for the miners, was it?
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Post by annedw on Oct 2, 2007 19:44:39 GMT
According to Deb, David was knocked down by a car.
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Post by hilary on Oct 2, 2007 20:24:00 GMT
Did you also raise the possibility that the 1932 was actually a marriage certificate, and that one of the fathers was DD, deceased miner? Car - yes, in 1914, perfectly possible, I could go along with that!
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Post by hilary on Oct 2, 2007 20:28:21 GMT
Or, perhaps, as I've just noticed your previous post with all the dates, it was was son, DD, not the father, who was run over and not in 1932......! 'ells bells, we thought our family was completely Liverpool through and through (mother's side), nobody ever dreamt they came from Cheshire....all the family stories began with some earlier generation, skipped the cheshire bit, and resumed again 100 years later in Liverpool.
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Post by hilary on Oct 2, 2007 20:59:08 GMT
I've lent out my copy of inquests and pubs - would it be in there?
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Post by tudorstyle2003 on Oct 2, 2007 23:20:05 GMT
Gosh, I can't believe the effort that you are putting into this. Thank you so much!! Although born in England, I live in Tasmania, Australia so that is also a problem when researching my families of which both sides come from England and Wales. I can only confirm my grandmother's birth date because I have her birth certificate. The other dates are from what my family has given me or pure guesswork. The information you have found re: 1901 census looks promising and also the other children's birth dates although it would mean that the parents were in their 40's when having their last children. My grandmother Annie married Thomas Emlyn Francis in a Wrexham Civil Wedding 1928.
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Post by annedw on Oct 3, 2007 10:59:57 GMT
You are correct, I`ve found that marriage. The other names are just `guesses` the only 100% way to find if they are the children is to get the certificates. I wonder where they were baptised. Apart from the 1914 death record - up to 1923 there are another 5 David Davies`s , that could be yours, they are a couple of years off the supposed birth date of 1868/1869 but we can`t rely on the census to be precise. Maybe a newspaper report will turn up. Do you have any idea where it happened. ?
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Post by tudorstyle2003 on Oct 4, 2007 1:00:10 GMT
Sorry I'm not much help but nobody seems to know where David Davies was knocked down or even where the children were baptised. It would be great to find a newspaper clipping. Actually it would be great to find anything else about the family. Really appreciate what you are both doing. Thanks Deb
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Post by tudorstyle2003 on Oct 4, 2007 22:55:30 GMT
You're very kind. Thank you!!!
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Post by Hen Locsin on Oct 6, 2007 12:24:58 GMT
Deb, Purely out of interest I have a Thomas Francis :-/and other Francis' in my tree. My one was born in Glascoed Lodge, St Asaph, Flints., but my family are predominantly from Llandegla & Minera. Also a Richard Francis born circa 1881 in Llandegla, so this may be another area you may be interested in searching. 8-)There were a number of Francis born in Llandegla, which I'm still researching, but the lead seems to be Edwin Francis & Sarah Davies who married on the 13th May 1870 in Llandegla Parish Church. Does this help or is it just a red-herring? Hen Locsin
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Post by tudorstyle2003 on Oct 7, 2007 2:42:06 GMT
Hen Locsin My grandad was Thomas Emlyn Francis born 21 Sept 1901 in Wrexham. From what I have gathered his father was also Thomas Francis born ?1863 Coedpoeth and his father was Richard Francis born ?1837 Oswestry, Shropshire. That's as far as I have gone with the Francis' and a lot is guesswork. Be interesting to see if our families are related. Regards Deb
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Post by annedw on Oct 11, 2007 15:54:01 GMT
OK Deb, No joy with Davids death as yet. BUT ;D I have found an Ann Davies aged 50 buried Oct 14th 1915. address 23 Brymbo Road. She is buried in Bwlchgwyn Church. From the 1901 census age it could possible be her , Also a Sarah Davies, aged 9 buried July 1 1910,also of 23 Brymbo Road. Mother and daughter ?? could they be yours ?? David is not in this Church register and the children were not baptised there. Is it the right Ann and Sarah, the only thing that gives me doubt is why isn`t David buried with them. .
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Post by tudorstyle2003 on Oct 12, 2007 3:11:44 GMT
In a letter from mum's cousin she mentioned 4/10/1915 and in another paragraph 23 Brymbo Rd was written. We didn't know exactly what that meant but thanks to you, now we do. It definately would be my great grandmother(Ann/Annie) that is buried at Bwlchgwyn and her daughter Sarah. I checked the bmd's and there is record of a Sarah Ellen Davies born in 1901 and another record of a death in 1910 (aged 9). It's great to put another piece in the puzzle!!!! As for David, he apparently liked the alcohol too much so Mum thought that he could even have had a pauper's burial. Thanks again Deb
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Post by annedw on Oct 12, 2007 15:26:26 GMT
That`s great Deb, at least we`ve made a start. Keep watching, I`ll still look out for him when I`m at the Museum again. I think it may be best just to look through the parish records. Maybe Brymbo might be worth a look. Hillside, Tan Y Bryn, Could it be Tan Y Fron Another question, have you any idea who the other children married, It`s a shame Annie had a civil wedding, the entry would show if David was still alive and narrow the dates down a bit. Maybe if I could find the others in a Church it would help. Nothings ever that easy though
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Post by hilary on Oct 12, 2007 22:37:43 GMT
I searched everywhere for a variation on Hillside, Tan y Bryn - Fron - Hill Street, all sorts of things, I couldn't find anything at all.
Hilary
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Post by tudorstyle2003 on Oct 12, 2007 23:10:30 GMT
Hannah Davies(daughter) married Fred Taylor in 1932. There was a date on the letter from mum's cousin 26 March 1932 then next to that it said 6 Hillside Tanyfron(sorry I thought it said bron) Brymbo. I suppose that could be the date that Hannah got married but we don't understand what the address is about. David William Davies(son) married Adelaide Beattie(from Belfast), not sure when or where. Mary Davies(daughter) apparently never married. Thanks again Deb
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Post by tudorstyle2003 on Oct 13, 2007 2:59:01 GMT
I've just been talking to my uncle in New Zealand and he thinks that David Davies(the one who was run over) died in 1914 but didn't know where. I checked bmd's and there was a death of a David Davies aged 44 in Wrexham 1914. It could be him?
He also said that he thought that the children Hannah and David went to live with an Edwards family after both their parents had died. Ann died in 1915.
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Post by annedw on Oct 13, 2007 8:38:58 GMT
So it could have been as I thought info from a marriage cert in 1932 that DD was deceased. In the book Brymbo and it`s Neighborhood ( which every one shoud have a copy of, it`s excellent ) the is a list of names and adresses in 1915. In 1915 there is a Howell Williams of Hillside in Bymbo, but it`s the only one so I think it could be a housename. Hill Street was in Brymbo. In Tanyfron there is College Hill
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Post by hilary on Oct 13, 2007 10:22:27 GMT
I missed that! I had looked through the names of men eligible for war service just in case it had been prepared before this man got run over. It being a house name sounds good. Nothing called Hillside is shown on the 1909 Ordnance Survey map, but I haven't got an old map of Tan-y-Fron.
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Post by annedw on Oct 13, 2007 11:11:38 GMT
Found Hannah and Fred (erick) in Wrexham 1932, again a civil wedding. Nothing for David and Adelaide , as yet. The only Adelaide Beattie married between 1930 and 1940 was in Manchester 1937 Sep Qtr, but she was married to `Cook.`
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Post by tudorstyle2003 on Oct 14, 2007 6:18:12 GMT
Just to confuse the issue of David Davie's death, mum said that her cousin had a receipt stating that David Davies paid for Ann Davies funeral. That would mean that he couldn't have died in 1914. I don't know what to believe anymore!!! There is another David Davies death on the bmd's in 1916 maybe that's him?
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Post by annedw on Oct 14, 2007 8:54:01 GMT
;D We`ll keep trying. In the meantime, if you go to the LOCATIONS forum from the Minera Ancestry then look for Christ Church, Bwlchgwyn, that`s where Ann and Sarah are buried. Between 1930 and 1940 the only Adelaide Beattie in the marriage index was married in 1937 but to a Cook. Registered in Manchester. How do you know she was born in Belfast ?
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