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Post by tudorstyle2003 on Oct 14, 2007 23:19:33 GMT
Thanks I will have a look at Christ Church. As for Adelaide, it was mum who said she was born in Belfast. She only died in the last year or so and apparently in her younger years she was a singer. Thanks again for your help, I really do appreciate it.
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Post by annedw on Oct 17, 2007 12:12:35 GMT
Good news Deb ;D ;D ;D I think I have got David. I rang the Ruthin Records Office last week, I know they are very helpful, and I know there is an index of inquests there so asked them to look in it for me. They have just called me back with the details that a David Davies of Brymbo died from multiple injuries. Date of inquest is 21 November 1916. The REF No is CRD/567. I checked this on the deaths index and David was 49, again about right. I can look in the Brymbo PR`s and he might be there, also I`ll have a look in the newspapers and see what I can find. The actual copy of the inquest can be photocopied by the Archives , and I suppose they would be willing to send it to you, but I expect you`d have to arrange that yourself, but anyone can go to the archives and look at it. It`ll be next week now before I can get to Wrexham museum.
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Post by tudorstyle2003 on Oct 17, 2007 22:07:54 GMT
Thank you so much again!! How and where do I request a copy of the inquest please. I'd really like to do that as soon as I can. Also, where can I get a copies of the books "Brymbo and it's neighbourhood" and "Pubs and Inquests in Coedpoeth, Minera and Bwlchgwyn? Deb
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Post by annedw on Oct 18, 2007 17:29:47 GMT
I`ve sent you a personal message with info on the records office. Pubs and Inquests is practically impossible to get hold of, but I did look in the museum copy and there is nothing about David in there, it`s mostly much earlier information. Brymbo and it`s Neighborhood is also an out of print book, but a couple were on Ebay a while ago, I think you might have some luck there, otherwise Amazon or other second hand book sellers may have a copy turn up. I have a constant search on Ebay for Minera Coedpoeth and Brymbo If I see one again I`ll post it on this thread.
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Post by tudorstyle2003 on Oct 19, 2007 23:09:39 GMT
Thank you again. I have sent a return personal message. Deb
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Post by annedw on Oct 22, 2007 17:26:32 GMT
Hi Deb, I`ve found the newspaper report on David. He died on Saturday 18th Nov 1916. He was aged 49 and residing at Twenty Houses, Bwlchgwyn. The Twenty Houses are on Brymbo Road so maybe he stayed there after Annie died. Report says ( shortened version ) He had been serving in the army and was employed at Plas Power Colliery. Mary Anne Davies eldest daughter identified the body. He was a widower with five children. He had a `kind of stroke`about 2 to 3 months earlier but had recovered. It doesn`t state that he was drunk when run over and witnesses said he was `quite sober`Verdict was accidental death, attention was made to the fact that if he had been taken to a place where he could have received proper attention he may have not died. He is not buried in Bwlchgwyn , Brymbo, is not in Coedpoeth St Tudfils register, Minera PRs stop at 1915 in the museum, so I couldn`t look there, perhaps he is in Coedpoeth Cemetery, As we have his date of death it would be easy enough to check. I will send you a personal message.
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Post by tudorstyle2003 on Oct 22, 2007 21:25:57 GMT
Well, that's very interesting. Some of the family must have got the wrong end of the stick!!
Can you tell me what Twenty Houses is, or was please?
Poor Mary must have only been in her teens when she had to identify her father.
I'd love to get a copy of the the newspaper clipping. How would I do that?
Thanks again Deb
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Post by shedevil on Oct 23, 2007 16:57:26 GMT
The 20 Houses consisted of beerhouse/Inn with 3 cottages attached and a further sepertate 17 houses and a smithy the public house "The Four Crosses" still stands on Ruthin Road but sadly the Houses no longer exist as they were demolished to make way for a new housing development
Tracey
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Post by llosgi calch on Oct 23, 2007 18:37:22 GMT
The Twenty Houses, Brymbo Road, Bwlchgwyn, are a terrace of 20 stone cottages, and are still there today.
(Tracey's 20 houses were attached from the gable end of the Five Crosses Inn pub, along Ruthin Road where the pub car park is.)
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Post by tudorstyle2003 on Oct 23, 2007 22:48:08 GMT
Thank you both for the information on Twenty Houses.
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Post by tudorstyle2003 on Oct 30, 2007 2:23:20 GMT
To annedw I have sent a personal message. Deb
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Post by annedw on Nov 11, 2007 11:14:59 GMT
Update on David, I can`t find him in Bwlchgwyn or Brymbo Church, the Minera vicar kindly searched for him and he`s not there either. He`s not in the index for Coedpoeth cemetery either. I wonder if as he and Annie and also the children had civil marriages, could he have been non conformist, I suppose the only way to find out which chapel would be to get the certificates. Annie and Sarah are in Bwlchgwyn Church graveyard WHY are these chapel registers so b*****y difficult to trace. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DETAILS FOR THE FRANCIS FAMILY ARE ON ANOTHER THREAD Thomas Emlyn Francis married Annie Davies The FRANCIS family. Thomas Emlyn Francis born 1901. 1901 censusI found Thomas Francis 38 with wife Sarah E 34 living at 6 Bridge St Southsea . He is a colliery fireman ? Both born Coedpoeth Children all born Southsea. Llewelyn 9.Leah 7. John R 5. Jesse 4. 1891 censusThomas Francis a coalminer and Sarah are living in 2 Weston Terrace Southsea , no children A Thomas Francis married Sarah Elizabeth Roberts in Mar qtr 1899. A civil wedding. 1881 census Smelt Row Coedpoeth Sarah Francis 39 coal miners widow b Rhes y Cae Flints. Thomas 18 b Coedpoeth Miriam 9 b " Sarah A 7 b " John 5 b " Richard 3 b " 1871 census living at J Wynne Row Coedpoeth Richard Francis 34 b Oswestry Sarah 30 b Halkyn Flints Thomas 8 b Wrexham Jane 6 b Wrexham Margret 4 b Wrexham I`m pretty sure this is the right family as Halkyn and Rhes Y Cae where Sarah was born are in the same area. Margret and Jane are probably working by 1881 , if they are still alive. Richard must have died after 1878 by the age of his son Richard. 1851 census Bryn Tirion Minera. John Francis 47 b Nerquis Flints lead miner Jane wife 48 b Llangynog John 19 b St Martins Shropshire mine lab. Richard 15 b St Martins Jane 10 b LLangynog James 12 b St Martins Anne 8 b Walnesgor ( probably Gwaenysgor) 1841 census Can`t seem to find them anywhere.
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Post by annedw on Nov 11, 2007 17:28:43 GMT
Minera Church Marriages 13 Dec 1862 Richard Francis miner of Berwig father John Francis miner. Sarah Jones of Coedpoeth father Thomas Jones miner. Wittnesses Joseph Jones and Elizabeth Francis Looking at the baptism of Thomas in March 1863 I`d imagine the wedding dress was a bit on the tight side Minera Church Baptisms18 Mar 1863 Thomas Francis s/o Richard and Sarah . Minera. 7 July 1867 Margaret d/o Richard and Sarah . Coedpoeth. Wern Chapel baptisms. 9 March 1865 Jane Francis d/o Richard and Sarah formerly Jones of Coedpoeth Wern Chapel BurialsJohn Francis 32 of Minera . Miner. died 5 June 1854 buried 9 June 1854 Jane Francis 20 of Berwig died 24 June 1861 buried 29 June 1861. Daughterof the late John Francis. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- All these are on Traceys Red -Zone. There are a few more Francis burials in Wern but I don`t wan`t to confuse it all. Hope there`s enough here to keep you going for a while Deb, ;D ;D ;D
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Post by tudorstyle2003 on Nov 11, 2007 21:39:36 GMT
annedw Gosh, you have been busy!!! Thank you very much. As for David Davies(again), would the death certificate give any clues?
I've sent a personal message. Thanks again Deb
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Post by annedw on Nov 13, 2007 17:54:00 GMT
Right -- here we go again trying to track Davids family. I really hope I`m on the right track here, any help will be welcome ;D ;D ;D 1901 17 Wesley Road. Brymbo. David Davies 32 b Tryddyn Coal Hewer Ann wife 34 b Tryddyn Mary Jane dau 1 b Brymbo Edward Davies single son 60b Tryddyn, Cattle man on farm.
According to this Edward is 28 years older then David, Alarm bells ringing
I can`t find any of the family in 1891.
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Post by annedw on Nov 13, 2007 18:04:27 GMT
1881 Plas ym Mhowys Cottage Tryddyn. Mary Davies 54 widower ( widow) b Mold. late labourers wife. Edward Davies unm 36 step son b Nerquis . collier. Frederick 14 son b Tryddyn David 12 son b Tryddyn
So now we know that Mary was Davids fathers second wife.
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Post by annedw on Nov 13, 2007 18:14:00 GMT
1871 Plas y Mhowis. Tryddyn Mary Davis 44 b Mold Widow Charwoman Edward son 23 unm b Tryddyn Coalminer Frederick son 5 b Tryddyn David son 3 b Tryddyn.
So now we know Davids father died between about 1867 and Apr 1871
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Post by annedw on Nov 13, 2007 18:24:13 GMT
I can`t find the family in 1861. And the nearest for Edward in 1851 is ---- 1851 Glan Terig ?? Nerquis. Ithel Davies 43 b Tryddyn ag lab Elizabeth 32 wife b Tryddyn Edward 7 b Tryddyn Annie 1 b Tryddyn So is this the right Edward and also Davids father. ?
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Post by tudorstyle2003 on Nov 14, 2007 4:05:34 GMT
annedw It all looks good. The 1851 census could be right although his father would have been approx 60 when he produced David. I guess the girl Annie would have married and left home by the 1871 census. I wonder where they were in 1861? Thankyou again Deb
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Post by annedw on Nov 14, 2007 13:42:34 GMT
1861 CENSUS for the Tryddyn, Leeswood , area is missing 1891 census Could be David In the household of Owen and Hannah Jones at Pentre. Broughton. David Davies S boarder 21 b Leeswood coal miner This is very close to Brymbo/ Bwlchgwyn. and Leeswood is close Tryddyn. 1870 Dec qtr. Death Index. Wrexham llb 194 Ithel Davies aged 65. Makes him born about 1805, which is very close to the 1851 census when he is 43. It could be Davids father , Mary was a widow by 1871. So far I`ve not found a marriage for Ithel and Mary. 1891 census Edward 3 Ashfield Rd , Rhosddu. Living in the household of Samuel and Elizabeth Jones Edward Davies S 51 lodger b Llanarmon. Coalminer. Llanarmon, and Tryddyn again very close. Perhaps Mary has died.
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Post by tudorstyle2003 on Nov 14, 2007 22:05:34 GMT
annedw I did try the bmd index' thinking that Ithel was probably not a very common name. I was wrong wasn't I!! Anyhow the death you found does look like the right one as do the 1891 census for David and Edward. I wouldn't have known where those places were or how close to Brymbo or Tryddyn. Even by looking on a map, I find it hard to imagine distances. So, thankyou once again. Deb
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Post by annedw on Nov 28, 2007 13:31:01 GMT
Update on Davids father This is Ithel Davies`s first marriage Llanrhaeadr-yng-nghinmerch. Marriage Nov 27 1841.Ithel Davies(X)full age. Bachelor. Lab. Pen y Bryn, Nerquis. Father, David.Labourer Elizabeth Vaughan(X) full age. Spinster. Groes??tha?. Father, Ivan. Labourer. Witnesses. Robert Thomas(X) and John Amos? Second marriage to Mary. Nerquis. Oct 28 1854.Ithel Davies(X) 48 Widower. Collier. Glant??y. Father, David. Lab. Mary Williams(X) 37.Spinster. Father, Richard. Labourer. Witnesses. David Davies(X) Mary Jones(X) Tryddyn Baptisms. Dec 25 1846. David S/O Ithel & Elizabeth Davies. Tryddyn. Labourer. April 24 1855. Mary D/O Ithel & Mary Davies. Tryddyn. Labourer. July 13 1868. David. S/O/ Ithel & Mary Davies. Tryddyn. Collier. Yes I know there seems to be two sons named David, these details are second hand but I`ve no reason to doubt the accuracy of my researcher No Burial for David in Nerquis, Tryddyn or Mold. Pity Ithels` dad was another David, we could do with a Idris Owain Llewelyn Davies , easy peasy. ;D ;D
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Post by annedw on Jan 24, 2008 20:37:25 GMT
An update on the Francis family.
Thomas Emlyn Francis married Annie Davies
The FRANCIS family. Thomas Emlyn Francis born 1901. 1901 census I found Thomas Francis 38 with wife Sarah E 34 living at 6 Bridge St Southsea . He is a colliery fireman ? Both born Coedpoeth Children all born Southsea. Llewelyn 9.Leah 7. John R 5. Jesse 4.
Thomas Emlyn Francis, was the great grandson of John Francis born Nerquis c 1804. John married Jane Watkin at St Martins on 12 March 1831. Jane was bapt at Llangynog 15 Jan 1802, she was the daughter of Richard and Anne Watkin. Richard Watkin of Pennant and Anne Davies of Llangynog were married on 27 Dec 1798 at Llangynog. Owen Hughes and John Davies were the witnesses.
Any help with John Francis would be great ;D
David Davies still has not been located, he must be in a chapel graveyard somewhere in the area, but we can`t find which one.
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Post by annedw on Jun 28, 2008 20:06:30 GMT
John Richard Francis aged 5 in 1901 joined the Royal Welsh Fusiliers. Private No 39093 16th Battalion. He served at home from Jan 14 th 1916 to Oct 26th 1916 - 286 days. He served in France from Oct 27 th 1916 until his death at Rouen on Aug 4 th 1917 - 282 days, in total I year 203 days. When he enlisted at Southsea on Jan 14th 1916 he was aged 20 years 8 months , he was 5ft 4in tall, and his chest when fully expanded was 37 in, expansion was 2 in. He weighed 140 lbs, A very slim young man ,who was working as a labourer
He had been vaccinated in infancy and had two vaccination marks. He was further vaccinated at Kinmel Park when he arrived there in March 1916.
His religion was entered as Wes(leyan) His next of kin was Sarah Elizabeth Francis, his mother, so his father must have died . They were still living at 5 Southsea Road. On Jan 16th 1918, a letter was sent to John`s mother Sarah asking her to acknowledge receipt of his property which amounted to - 3 religious books, bag, 2 pocket cases, purse, cigarette case, scissiors, cross, identity disc, photos, letters and cards. John had been awarded the British War Medal and the Victory Medal. John is commererated on the Coedpoeth War Memorial.
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Post by celticar on Jun 28, 2008 21:30:22 GMT
Naming the mother as next of kin doesn't mean father dead for def.
Have come across a few military records where the mother is put down and not the father as Next-of-kin.
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Post by annedw on Jun 28, 2008 21:56:24 GMT
On Free BMD I found Thomas Francis aged 45 died June qtr 1907, Wrexham , so I think this might be John`s dad, the ages match. He died quite young then. Presumably he was also Wesleyan , so any ideas on where he might he buried if he was still living in Southsea. Coedpoeth maybe
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Post by tudorstyle2003 on Jun 29, 2008 0:32:01 GMT
Annette Thankyou for that information. Where did you manage to find it? I did notice that he was quite short which I thought very unusual as the rest of us are very tall. Thanks again(and celticar) Deb
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Post by annedw on Jul 6, 2008 17:05:42 GMT
Update on John b 1804 , this seems to definately be him. All the place names, Arddunwent, Broncoed, Brychanilt, were part of the Plas Onn estate, Nerquis. MOLD MARRIAGES 1799 March 15 by Banns John Francis ba otp Jane Griffith sp otp wittnesses Aaron Francis, Barbara Davies, John Griffiths. MOLD baptisms 1799 April 28 Anne Francis 1st d/o John and Jane d/o Howell Griffiths. Arddunwent. 1801 Dec 27 Mary 2nd d/o John and Jane d/o Howell and Elizabeth Griffiths. Arddunwent 1804 Feb 12 born 8th John Francis s/o John and Jane previously Griffiths. Broncoed.1806 May 17 th b 15 th Aaron Francis s/o John and Jane prev Griffiths Broncoed 1808 Sept 3 b 2 nd Martha Francis d/o John and Jane prev Griffiths Brychanillt. Wouldn`t it be great if all PRs gave this amont of information, but we still don`t know who John snr parents are Jane Griffiths should be quite easy , watch this space. ;D ;D ;D
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Post by tudorstyle2003 on Jul 6, 2008 23:34:18 GMT
Thankyou very much Annette
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Post by annedw on Jun 12, 2010 6:52:00 GMT
Going back to the very beginning of this thread. Tom has found the baptism of one of David and Annie`s daughters in Bethesda Wesleyan Methodist Chapel, Bwlchgwyn. Baptised 14 Sept 1905 ( born 25 August 1905) Hannah Elizabeth d/o David and Ann Davies. 23 Brymbo Road, Bwlchgwyn. Minister Richard Jones.
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