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Post by tomjones on Mar 24, 2009 8:17:05 GMT
Hello everyone, I have not long begun my search, prompted really by the 1911 census which has allowed me to trace all but arguably my most precious ancestry - the Welsh bit!
My Grandfather, Thomas Charles Jones, was born at Poplar Place, Adwy, on a date around which there is some mystery circa March 1st, 1911.
His Father was Richard Jones, whom we believe may have been from Oswestry. He was known in the village as 'Richard English'. Richard's wife's maiden surname was Able, and my understanding is that she was an early convert when the Salvation Army opened in Coedpoeth.
My G/father Thomas Charles was a miner as a boy and went on to become the SA Bandmaster at Coedpoeth as a young man, and subsequently a Lt Col in the Salvation Army, marrying a Rhoda Drury from Bootle, Liverpool; as a result he left the area and our branch of the family diverged somewhat! I believe his brother Jack may have died as a young man and I think he had a sister, Elsie.
The other snippet I have is that I believe somewhere along the line one of Thomas Charles' parents was a Hughes.
I haven't yet checked the 1901 census but if anyone has already done some work, please give me a shout!
Many thanks.
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Post by jojo on Mar 24, 2009 10:25:17 GMT
Marriage for Martha Ellen ABEL Richard JONES Sep Q 1893 Wrexham 11b 456
1901 Census 4 Rydal Terrace ref RG13; Piece: 5219; Folio: 74; Page: 4 Richard JONES, age 39, Lab at Coal Mine, Llanymynech Pant, Shropshire Martha Ellen JONES, age 25, Bersham Sarah Elizabeth, age 6, Minera Margaret Jane, age 4, Coedpoeth
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Post by jojo on Mar 24, 2009 11:12:13 GMT
1881 Gredford - Gwersyllt ref RG11; Piece: 5518; Folio: 41; Page: 27 Chas ABEL, age 40, coal miner, born Bersham Sarah ABEL, age 37, born Lugan? Flintshire Mary Elizth ABEL, age 9, born Bersham Martha Ellen ABEL, age 6, born Bersham
poss marriage Wrexham Dec Q 1862 11b 618 Charles ABLE Sarah SHELL
1871 Bersham RG10; Piece: 5655; Folio: 81; Page: 8 Charles ABLE, age 30, Collier, born Minera Sarah ABLE, age 27, born Mold Flintshire Sarah Ann ABLE, age 5, born Barsham Margaret Jane ABLE, age 2, born Barsham
HTH Heather
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Post by tominera on Mar 24, 2009 18:18:21 GMT
Hi, Buried in Plot 609 in Coedpoeth Cemetery are the following Richard JONES aged 66 yrs bur. 30 4 1929 Martha Ellen JONES aged 61 yrs bur. 27 5 1936 Louisa JONES aged 10 months bur. 28 2 1906 Edith JONES aged 2 yrs bur. 24 10 1922 Annie Evelyn JONES aged 24 yrs bur. 2 5 1931 The dates look promising---good luck Tom
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Post by tomjones on Mar 25, 2009 18:56:20 GMT
Ooh, you are efficient! ;D
Thanks so much, I'm pretty confident that's right. Where can I look up the documents you have kindly referenced?
I'm in Wrexham at the weekend, can anyone advise on how I navigate the cemetery?
I'm very new to this game so forgive my inexperience, and thanks again for your help thus far. It all looks right to me, even down to the fact that Thomas Charles had a daughter called Margaret and I wondered where the name originated...
Any advice on where to look next gratefully received - are some of the data sources you quote available for download or is it a case of visiting records offices?
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Post by eluned on Mar 25, 2009 19:09:43 GMT
Hi Tom and welcome to the site Both of the marriages mentioned by Jojo are civil. ie Martha Ellen ABEL to Richard JONES and Charles ABLE to Sarah SHELL so you would have to buy the certificates.
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Post by jojo on Mar 25, 2009 19:23:10 GMT
Hi Tom and welcome to the site Both of the marriages mentioned by Jojo are civil. ie Martha Ellen ABEL to Richard JONES and Charles ABLE to Sarah SHELL so you would have to buy the certificates. Hi Tom The references I gave you for the marriages are General Register Office references numbers. You can order copies of the documents on line from the GRO at www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/ or you can obtain them by writing to the registrar at Wrexham. For that you will need different numbers which can be obtained from the NorthWalesBMD website at www.northwalesbmd.org.uk/bmd_welcome.html Sorry but don't know where plot no 609 would be found at the Coedpoeth Cemetary. Perhaps tominera can help? The census images are available from Ancestry.co.uk They offer 14 day free trials but you will need to give them a credit card number for membership. If you don't want the membership you will need to cancel a few days before the free trial period ends or they will charge you Heather
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Post by jojo on Mar 25, 2009 19:45:22 GMT
Richard Jones is more of a challenge to find Llanymynech is on the border between Mongomeryshire and Shropshire so references to place of birth can vary from census to census. You can learn more about it from the genuki website www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/MGY/Llanymynech/index.htmlthis is a possible census sighting of Robert in 1881 Ref RG11; Piece: 2659; Folio: 23; Page: 37 Gate Street, Oswestry Town Elizabeth JONES, head, widow, age 50, born Salop, Alberberry John Jones, son, age 23, machinist, born Montgomery Llandysilio Richard JONES, son, age 19, Coach Painter (apprentice), born Montgoery Llanymynech William JONES, son, age 13, scholar, born Salop Oswestry
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Post by annedw on Mar 25, 2009 20:11:30 GMT
The A N Palmer centre ( Museum) in Wrexham has online access to Ancestry for free, but you will probably have to book a computer, it`s very popular. When you go to Coedpoeth , wrap up well, it overlooks the Minera mountain and gets the full blast of the winds.
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Post by jojo on Mar 25, 2009 20:12:31 GMT
Also found this family in 1891 RG11; Piece: 2659; Folio: 23; Page: 37 Bersham Thomas JONES, age 50, mar, head, quarryman, Pant Oswestry Eliza JONES, age 50, wife, born Porthywaen?? Oswestry Richard JONES, age 29, son, Single, quarryman, born " " William H. JONES, age 12, son, born Bersham
I think you should obtain the JONES/ABEL marriage certificate to confirm the christian name of your Richard's father. Hopefully that will help with finding a birth certificate for Richard.
Heather
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Post by eluned on Mar 25, 2009 20:22:03 GMT
You could try contacting Coedpoeth Cemetery with regard to locating the plot mentioned by Tominera. The Lodge, Cemetery Rd, Coedpoeth Tel: 01978 755617 In the mean time there are a couple of websites which you may find useful, one gives inscriptions for some of the graves and the other is photos. Hope you are lucky. www.tom-mercer-mi-indexes.org.uk/Cemetery,%20Coedpoeth.htm www.clwyd-mi.co.uk/Plot 609 is located within the top section of the cemetery. As you enter via the gate near the lodge, it is the area to your left but there are 720 plots in this area alone I'm afraid . I searched for several in this section recently and found some that I was looking for but not others
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Post by tomjones on Mar 25, 2009 22:19:23 GMT
Heather et al, thanks so much, that's super stuff. How are you able to interrogate the census and BMD data so quickly? Do you have some sort of subscription to the data source?
The latter Richard sounds right because he was from the English side of Llanymynech and moved to Coedpoeth, but as you say, the certificates will clinch it. I've ordered both marriage certs and then I have something to go on...
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Post by jojo on Mar 26, 2009 8:24:57 GMT
Hi Tom another link which may be of interest www.archenfield.com/Llanymynech%20Five%20Kilns.htmI use www.freebmd.org.uk for searching births, marriages and deaths. Their data base is used by ancestry UK but the search engine is much more flexible than the one on ancestry. I subscribe to ancestry UK for accessing the 1841-1901 censuses and many other records. Many others also like/prefer findmypast and some subscribe to both Genuki is invaluable for learning about where places are and where to find available records. If you input the name of a place and add the word genuki into a search engine you will usually find the direct link to their page regarding that place. Geograph.co.uk and Old Maps Uk are excellent tools for finding pictures and linking to Ordnance Survey maps to assist in understanding where places are in relationship to each other. Genealogy is highly addictive and can be expensive if you choose to document your research, but it is a lot of fun and you meet great people along the way. Heather
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Post by tomjones on Mar 26, 2009 10:16:13 GMT
That's super Heather, thanks.
I was wondering how you were getting BMD data so quickly and for free, I have been paying for that information to save having to go to libraries! that will help a great deal and as you say, you do have to watch the cost... My father and I are particularly interested because my Grandfather (who died months before my birth) said (and frankly probably knew) little about his origins.
All the other stems of the family we have at least some living knowledge of back to the early 20th C. but the part that makes me a Jones is the biggest mystery of all!
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Post by tominera on Mar 26, 2009 18:27:42 GMT
Hi, Sorry I cannot pinpoint exact location of grave but can be pretty definite it is in the section immediately on your left when you enter the cemetery from the main entrance. Some kerbs around grave give the number at the foot, usually on the outside edge--carved or marked. Once you find a number,(numbers) you will have to do some detective work then as to which direction to search etc. Good Luck Tom
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Post by sharonbrown2 on Mar 26, 2009 19:23:19 GMT
Hi, If you go and see Alan who looks after the cemetery, he lives in the Lodge in the cemetery grounds. He has a map showing all the grave numbers and whereabouts they are located. he is very helpful. If you don't get an answer when you knock, you will find him somewhere in the grounds.
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Post by llosgi calch on Mar 26, 2009 19:46:26 GMT
Sut mae Tom Jones, Croeso i'r bwrdd a pob lwc efo eich hanes teulu. Hi Tom, welcome to the board and good luck with your family history. As you have noted we have some very helpful and skilled members who will assist you whenever possible. Be careful not to rely too heavily on others though - as you cant beat the buzz of uncovering your ancestors - especially the ones that take weeks, months or years to truly fathom out! Coedpoeth cemetery is aptly found on Cemetery Road in the village - and as Annette advises, wrap up! ;D
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Post by annedw on Mar 26, 2009 20:22:27 GMT
;D ;D ;D
I have found a baptism for you. Salem Chapel , Coedpoeth, still standing on the main road. Thomas Charles s/o JONES Richard and Martha Ellen, Poplar's Place, Adwy born 27 February 1912 bapt 17 April 1912
As this is a Chapel, it seems the family were non conformist, especially as there were civil marriges.
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Post by tomjones on Mar 27, 2009 18:04:53 GMT
Thanks everyone for your input, you are right, I am anxious to do as much of this myself as I can, hence I am asking how you find such things out so that I may do it myself next time! It's the old adage about teaching a man to fish A baptism at Capel Salem is an interesting one! Yes, the family was non-conformist. The missing link for me now is that I know Martha Ellen joined the Salvation Army in Coedpoeth soon after they opened in 1923. However I have a picture of Thomas Charles in Salvation Army uniform with what my Father was told was TC's grandmother at the age of about 5, which would pre-date this! Some exploration of the history of my own denomination should put that bit to bed; I believe Coedpoeth has records from that era and other corps' locally may do so also (indeed some such as Cefn Mawr were merged into Wrexham, where I now worship, so we might well have them in-house!) Anne, do I assume you have access to copies of Church records to know about the baptism? Could I search them further myself without having to visit them? Thanks again.
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Post by annedw on Mar 27, 2009 18:25:06 GMT
Have sent a PM
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Post by tomjones on Apr 3, 2009 23:24:49 GMT
Just a note of thanks again - my certs came yesterday and confirm most things! It would seem Thomas Charles' maternal family were of Calvinist Methodist background, I now have some parents names to go back another generation as well of course.
I didn't realise the certs would be copies of the register entry rather than a handwritten transcript, which was a nice bonus. Sobering to see that both the bride and both witnesses at one of the weddings were unable to write.
I visited the cemetery on Sunday afternoon, passing Salem Chapel which is still open and Welsh speaking from what I can tell. Unfortunately no joy in the cemet. but am going to contact the office for them to see if there is a headstone. From what I know now I suspect there won't be, but the chap there reckoned he remembered seeing a Charles Able in there somewhere....
The search continues but thank you all for helping me get started!
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Post by lara on Feb 19, 2013 22:56:38 GMT
hi
just wondering if the person who started this thread is still a member, as my husband is descended from the Elsie (May) Jones sister to Thomas Charles mentioned in the original post
Lara
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Post by eluned on Feb 20, 2013 8:51:21 GMT
Hi Lara Doesn't look as though Tom as been on for several years You could try contacting him via a personal message Good luck eluned
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Post by lara on Feb 20, 2013 21:20:01 GMT
thank you for the reply eluned, i have sent him a pm and will watch my inbox with hope. my husband and his sister are enjoying the information i am finding for them.
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Post by eluned on Feb 22, 2013 19:18:06 GMT
Hope you get a reply asap
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