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Post by Kate C on Aug 18, 2006 15:22:54 GMT
My great grandmother, Emma Williams, was born in Adwyrclawdd in May 1853 and appears to have been the eldest child of Thomas and Elizabeth Williams. She did, however, have an elder brother Thomas who is shown on the 1851 census living with his mother Elizabeth Hughes, who is described as unmarried and her son's housekeeper. Also in the household are Edward Hughes aged 16 (Elizabeth's brother) and a couple of lodgers. Thomas Williams was a stonemason, as were his brothers Henry and William. All three were living at home with their widowed mother Sarah in 1851. Henry appears to have married someone called Jane and had a son, David around 1854. William is shown on the 1861 census living with his brother in law, Robert Evans and his wife Mary Evans. Coincidentally, in 1851 Robert and Mary Evans were lodging with Elizabeth Hughes and her baby son (same names and ages so I guess were the same people) . Thomas and Elizabeth were married in Wrexham in Sept 1852. The first names of their fathers are both shown as John and the witnesses were Henry Williams and Amelia Hughes. As yet, I haven't been able to find out who Amelia was (Elizabeth's sister?). It's unfortunate that there are no entries for the area in the 1841 census as that might have filled in some of the gaps and queries (I was quite relieved to find that the returns appear to be missing, I thought the problem was my searching!). By 1861 Elizabeth was widowed, but had had a baby son, Owen, in addition to several daughters and her eldest child Thomas (now given the surname Williams). Owen's birth certificate does not show a father's name so Thomas may have died before this baby was conceived (haven't tracked down a record of his death as yet). Oh dear, I appear to be related to the village tart . At least two of the daughters, including my great grandmother, went into service, although one of them came home to give birth to an illegitimate daughter in 1874 (looks as if it ran in the family). This little girl (called Emma) was living with her grandmother and uncles in Hughes' Row in 1881 but in 1901 was living with her mother Mary Ann(e) in East Lancashire and described as her 'niece'. I wonder if she ever knew the truth? Owen married and had a family of his own but Thomas appears to have remained single and after his mother's death is shown on the 1901 census as a lodger in a house on Nant Road.
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Post by shedevil on Aug 19, 2006 14:15:26 GMT
Hello Kate and welcome to the forum I’m having a problem trying to decipher the information that you have posted about your Williams family as you are aware Thomas William and Elizabeth are all very common names on their own in the Victorian era that’s without coupling them to the surname of Williams. First of all you are talking of your Emma Williams daughter of Thomas and Elizabeth Williams then you go on to say that Emma had an older brother named Thomas who was born around 1851 but what is confusing here is that he is said to be shown on the 1851 census as living with his mother an Elizabeth Hughes I’m still trying to find out why her name has changed suddenly from Williams to Hughes ? From the information gained from her entry in Adwy on the 1861 Census Elizabeth who was born Circa 1827 was a widow in 1861 and has the children Thomas aged 11 Emma aged 7 Sara aged 6 Elizabeth aged 3 and Owen aged what looks like 1 & 3 Months Are you sure about the marriage of Thomas and Elizabeth??? I’m wondering where the information came from was it documented by your family or is this information you have obtained from the census returns ?
Sometimes because of the common names we can sometimes end up with the wrong families being matched because of similarities in the names of children etc. even though you have a marriage certificate is it for the correct Thomas and Elizabeth ?
With regard to illegitimatises I wouldn’t be to concerned if I were you these are quite commonplace events and have been since life began. It was not uncommon for girls that went into service to be abused by their peers and thus end up with an illegitimate child as abortions in those days were hard to come by and also lead to a lot of deaths from being administered. My family is also derived from an illegitimate child, My Great Grandfather was the result of what was said to have been the rape of his mother by one of the family she was working for whilst she was in service, Whether this is true or she was just promiscuous I will never know but even if she were it wouldn’t change anything.
If you can provide more information regarding Elizabeth and Thomas I would be more than happy to help with any further research that could benefit you with tracing any further information for you to fill in the missing gaps
Tracey
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Post by Kate C on Aug 21, 2006 13:08:47 GMT
Hi Tracey
I certainly know what you mean with regard to names! Apologies for the confusion.
I'm as sure as I can be that the Emma Williams on the 1861 census, living with the widowed Elizabeth Williams, is my great grandmother. She is the only child with a corresponding name, age, place of birth and parent with the right first name that I have been able to trace.
I feel that the most likely explanation (having checked and cross checked birth and wedding registrations as well as the 1851 & 1861 Wales censuses for Hughes and Williams) is that young Thomas was born to Elizabeth Hughes in 1849/50, before her marriage to the stonemason Thomas Williams in 1852 and that the family simply changed young Thomas' surname after the wedding.
The 1852 wedding certificate is almost certainly that of my great great grandparents. It shows Thomas Williams' occupation as stonemason (which is also stated on great grandma's birth certificate). I can only trace one Thomas Williams who was a stonemason in Bersham in 1851, he was single at that time and his age and the name of his brother corresponds with details on the wedding certificate.
The other corroborating factor linking the family on the 1861/1871/1881 censuses to my family is Elizabeth Williams' grand-daughter Emma, born in 1874 and living with her in Adwy in 1881. As well as obtaining her birth certificate, I've traced little Emma through census returns until 1901 when I find her living in Bury with someone who I know for certain was my great grandmother's sister.
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Post by shedevil on Aug 25, 2006 16:02:35 GMT
Hi again Kate I have searched the census returns again for you and haven’t really found out much more for you Like you have already mentioned the first census for 1851 shows the following: 30/03/1851 Sarah Williams Head Married 57 House Keeper Denbigh,Wrexham Thomas Williams Son Unmarrried 27 Stone Mason Denbigh, Wrexham Henry Williams Son Unmarried 22 Stone Mason Denbigh, Wrexham William Williams Son Unmarried 19 Stone Mason Denbigh, Wrexham
From this information it seems that Sarah was born c1794, Thomas c1824, Henry c1829 and William c1832. All the children were born before compulsory birth records commenced in 1837 and I cannot locate any of them on the parish registers and therefore assume they were of non-conformist religion.
At this point in time it does not state that Sarah is a Widow so maybe her husband was still alive but working elsewhere at that time Sarah is not showing on the 1861 census returns and therefore she may have died in the 10 years between census returns.
On the 1861 Census I have located the Following:
Rhos Berse Road, Bersham Henry Williams Head Married 31 Stone Cutter Denbigh, Bersham Jane W Williams Wife Married 31 Stone Cutter’s Wife Shropshire David W Williams Son Unmarried 7 Scholar Denbigh, Bersham Margaret Allen Sister in Law Unmarried 25 Shropshire
From this information it is quite possible that Jane’s Maiden name was Allen.
Ruthin Turnpike Road, Bersham Robert Evans Head Married 40 Coal Miner Flintshire, Holywell Mary E Evans Wife Married 35 Coal Miner’s Wife Denbighshire, Bersham Thomas E Evans Unm Nephew 7 Scholar Monmouthshire Joseph Jones Unm Child named 3 Coalminer’s Son Bersham, Denbighshire idiot William Williams Unm Brother in Law 29 Stone Cutter Bersham, Denbighshire
By this time you have already found that Thomas has passed away as his wife Elizabeth is shown as a widow I have searched the death registration records and found the following entries for a Thomas Williams for the period that I think would fit into place Deaths Mar 1859 Williams Thomas Wrexham 11B 242 Deaths Jun 1859 WILLIAMS Thomas Wrexham 11b 267 Deaths Dec 1859 Williams Thomas Wrexham 11b 233 Deaths Dec 1860 Williams Thomas Wrexham 11b 225 Williams Thomas Wrexham 11b 234
I have found an extract from a website that I use often just to clarify things on certificates (http://www.dixons.clara.co.uk/Certificates/) which states If a mother was widowed before the birth of her legitimate baby the entry will show (deceased) after fathers name. from what you have said this does not seem to be the case with Owens birth entry
In the 1871 Census at Hughes Row, Adwy Elizabeth Thomas and Owen are shown on the return In the 1881 Census at Hughes Row Adwy’r Clawdd shows Elizabeth, Thomas Owen and her Granddaughter Emma aged 7 In the 1891 Census Elizabeth now aged 68 is shown living at Hughes row with just her son Thomas aged 41 I have probably covered a lot of ground that you have already found the only other information that I have obtained relates to the possible birth of Thomas which from taking into account he was born around mid 1849 to 1850 the only Thomas Williams recorded for the Wrexham area are as follows : Births Jun 1849 Williams Thomas Wrexham Vol 27 Page 281
Births Sep 1849 WILLIAMS Thomas Wrexham Vol 27 Page 252 WILLIAMS Thomas Wrexham Vol 27 Page 257 Births Jun 1850 Williams Thomas Wrexham Vol 27 Page 319 Williams Thomas Wrexham Vol 27 Page 317 Births Sep 1850 Williams Thomas Wrexham Vol 27 Page 289
I hope this has been of some use to you
Tracey
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Post by Kate C on Sept 4, 2006 11:55:52 GMT
Many thanks for the information, Tracey. It's much appreciated. I'll be sending off for certificates to see if I can track down exact dates for Thomas Williams' death and the birth of his other children.
It's a pity that they don't appear on the parish registers. As you say, the family may have been non conformists. Elizabeth and Thomas' wedding certificate shows that they were married at Wrexham Parish Church, though the residences of both are given as Bersham. Their daughter Emma was married in Salford at the registry office, which may suggest non conformity.
The only family member I've been able to find in the Minera parish registers is Elizabeth's little grand daughter Emma, born in 1874. This gives the name of the mother and confirms that the baby was illegitimate (which I knew from her birth certificate). Unusually for an illegitimate birth, the entry gives the name and occupation of the father - a Liverpool sailor.
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