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Post by keithj on Jun 12, 2008 10:52:10 GMT
The Edward Davies I've just discovered as my 4 x Great grandfather baptised three children at the Penybryn Independent Chapel in Wrexham between 1800 and 1803 and in each case is described as a Mine Agent. The only clue, vague as it undoubtedly is, to the location of Edward's mine is the declaration in the 1851 census that his son, Davies Edward, was born at Minera. Given that Davies became a coal-miner, it's a good bet that his father also worked in coal as soft- and hard-rock mining techniques are very, very different. As I undestand it, the nearest coal mines to Minera were at Coedpoeth.
I'm having to make a few assumptions to try and make some progress:
1) the family were at Minera or nearby and did not move far from there 2) Edward Davies died before Wern opened its graveyard in 1822 3) the family were staunch Congregationalists
Where might Edward be buried?
Keith
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Post by eluned on Jun 12, 2008 16:23:55 GMT
Looking at genuki for Wrexham shows Seion, Regent Street Calvinistic Methodist Burials but only 1715 - 1718 register available. I know you mentioned this chapel on another post. Penybryn is listed as Baptist
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Post by keithj on Jun 12, 2008 17:22:34 GMT
You're right that Penybryn is a Baptist chapel but further down the list there's Pen y Bryn Independent Chapel in Salisbury Park, too. Confusin', innit? I've discovered there was a dissenters' burial ground in Wrexham but I got the impression that it ended up effectively belonging to one group rather than all non-conformists so I'm not sure if it would be a good starting point. I'm thinking about coming over the the Clwyd FHS Research Centre in Cefn Mawr next week to see whether I can shake a few more leaves off the family tree. It's been a while since I've been that way. With a bit of luck I'll also be able to go over to Wern and see if I can find the burial ground. Keith
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Post by annedw on Jun 25, 2008 15:10:18 GMT
The site for Pen Y Bryn independant chapel was secured in 1783, it is in Chapel Street Wrexham. 21 persons signed a covenant and were recognised as a church . Of these 21 three are members of my Wilcoxon family and two were in-laws. Three of these 21 were expelled, no names are given An Independant Academy was moved from Oswestry to Wrexham and some who received instructions were William Williams ( Wern ) Some of the students started the Welsh churches at Wern and Harwd, Brymbo. From notes in the back of the book I am taking this from many members were buried in the Dissenters Graveyard , Rhosddu. There are MIs in Wrexham for this . The Salisbury Park church is a much more modern building and the congregation moved there from the Pen Y Bryn chapel, which is still standing. Dissenters burial ground seems to date from the 17c. In 1799 there was a disagreement between Presbyterians and Baptists over the ownership of the ground, thought the Baptists admitted Dissenenters in general to bury their dead as long as they paid the fees. It closed in 1888. A register of burials between 1785 and 1857 was deposted at Somerset House . Now this info comes from an old booklet , so the info on the registers may not apply now, I tried to find out where the registers were without much success, but that was quite a while ago. The graveyard is right on the side of the road and I`ve out a link on the Wrexham Locations Thread.
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Post by keithj on Jun 25, 2008 17:29:15 GMT
Lovely, thanks, Annette. It could be very useful indeed.
My logic in assuming Edward Davies died before 1822 comes from his job. In 1800, when he and Margaret baptise Eleanor, he's already a Mine Agent. I borrowed a book (Flinn, History of the British Coal Industry, Vol 2, 1700-1830) and that confirmed my suspicion that he was very, very unlikely to have reached such a position before he was 40. He would have bee the manager of at least one colliery, which would have been a group of mines within a given area, and would probably have reported directly to the owners. To reach such a lofty position he would have started work underground at a very early age - six wasn't unusual in 18th C - and then been promoted as his experience and expertise developed. It would not have been an easy progress because he would have been waiting for "dead men's boots" to fill at every stage.
It isn't impossible that he survived to be buried at Wern but he'd have to be well into his sixties by the time it opened and the hard life he would have had makes that less likely than for some trades.
Any thoughts from the group would welcome.
Keith
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Post by annedw on Jun 26, 2008 15:26:26 GMT
I had time to pop into the museum today and found this. ;D What do you think, could ths be yours, pity there are no other names or his job that would confirm it. Rhosddu Dissenters Burial Ground Edward Davies. Minera. died 1803 aged 58. No other names on the stone. Ruthin Road Graveyard. Edward Davies of Adwyclawdd died 1822 aged 76. Maurice Hughes died Mar 5 ? These are on the same stone. Also two other Edward Davies`s with no details in seperate graves.
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Post by keithj on Jun 26, 2008 16:06:35 GMT
Rhosddu Dissenters Burial Ground Edward Davies. Minera. died 1803 aged 58. No other names on the stone. He could be mine but I wouldn't think so. They baptised Mary in February 1803. OK, he could die of natural causes the following day but if he was 58 and having children that must have been very, very unusual. She was the third child between 1800 and 1803 so I'd tend to think he was in his prime and not close to death. The second chap would have been a similar age to the first in 1800 so I'm wary of either of them. However, an Edward Davies married a Margaret Hughes in 1788 at St Giles by licence. They're the only couple that match the names of my ancestors in the Clwyd FHS Hayes index for Wrexham but the transcript of the licence says he was a joiner. I suppose it might be a mis-transcription of miner and I'm waiting for a response from the LLGC about copies of this and several wills.
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Post by annedw on Jun 26, 2008 17:32:42 GMT
Rhosddu Dissenters The other one I found is Edward Davies builder of Wrexham, died at Liverpool. Sept 19 1821 aged 66. I suppose he might be the joiner.
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Post by keithj on Jun 26, 2008 18:09:25 GMT
I think this is going to be one of those situations that will only be resolved with a fair bit of luck.
There are only two possibilities in the Wern burials but neither has an age or occupation:
Edward Davies of Park 9/4/1842 Margaret Davies of Nant, 9/5/1847
I believe Nant lies between New Brighton and Coedpoeth but I have no idea where Park might have been.
Keith
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Post by annedw on Jun 26, 2008 19:26:04 GMT
Park is just above Wern Chapel graveyard. If you look at Old Maps, and I`m going to tell you how just in case you haven`t, search the gazeteer ( green box on the left )for Denbs, then New Brighton, go to zoom level 3 and you can see both the Park and Wern graveyard, pan east 4 times and you are in the Nant. www.old-maps.co.uk/index.htmI`ve just double checked the original register photo for Edward and there are no more details except the minister was Rev D Price, Rhos. Margarets age seems to be 84, the 8 is a bit Iffy, but it does look very similer to the ones in the dates. It`s also 84 on the Redzone records.
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Post by keithj on Jun 26, 2008 19:49:10 GMT
Thanks, Annette. Your local knowledge is quite invaluable to more distant folks like me. If Margaret was 84 when she died then the chances are she's not mine. Being 84 in 1847 means she was born around 1763 so what are the chances of her producing three children in four years 1800 and 1803, when she would have been 37-40? Not much chance under ordinary circumstances. On the other hand, I've read that some couples married late if they didn't want many children. If that were true, I'd expect Margaret to have been in service up to her marriage so my guess would then be: - She had no children so her health was probably much better than the average woman of her age
- She ought to have risen to a senior position in the household - cook, say - so she would have eaten better than her married contemporaries
- She would not have kept her own house so would probably have worked less physically hard than many of her contemporaries.
It's all speculation and circumstance but that might make it possible for her to have those children. Perhaps I need my Genealogical Fairy Godmother to grant me a wish or two because I don't think this is going to be easily settled. Keith
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Post by annedw on Jun 26, 2008 20:33:56 GMT
I`m wondering now if Edward and Margeret were married in a Church even if the children bere baptised at Pen Y Bryn Minera wasn`t a seperate parish till about 1844, and even though there was a Minera chapel of ease, the records were actually entered in Wrexham Parish registers. The Wilcoxons I mentioned were baptised in Holt or Frodsham church, and married in Holt Church, then some broke away to form the Pen Y Bryn. Heather / Sceptrelady has the Wrexham PRs for this time - I Think, I`m sure she`ll do a look up for you.
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Post by keithj on Jun 27, 2008 7:10:37 GMT
I would have thought they married in a church, if only because this is the time of Hardwicke's Act (1754-1837). Although I know nothing about Edward, I only have to see how far Davies Edward travelled to go to Wern or Penuel chapels from Nebo or Ffynnon-y-Cwrw to understand the strict nature of the faith he had given to him. "Living over the brush" just seems inconceivable for anyone with a fervent faith. The root problem is having no idea where Edward came from. All we have to go on is the likelihood that he was managing a coal mine rather than a lead, iron or limestone operation. Was he even Welsh? I would say that's more than likely from Davies Edward's name and its continuation with his sons and grandsons. But is he a local? If he and Margaret are locals then the chances are they married at a parish church in a coal-mining area. Although they may have married at her parish church, I would expect that to be fairly local to the NE Wales coalfield of the time because he wouldn't have had time to go courting any distance. I hadn't got these ideas formulated the other week when I went over to the Clwyd FHS research centre at Cefn Mawr so I went straight for the Hayes transcriptions for Wrexham. Perhaps my next route should be to search the transcriptions for contiguous parishes? Against their being local, the end of the 18th century saw massive changes in mining technology and practice so he could have been brought in to bring experience with modern machinery from elsewhere. I'm not well enough up with Welsh coal mining to know whether there were NE area mines that were at the forefront of technology. Otherwise he'd have to come from South Wales but there are difficulties with that: - Were north-south communications that good back then?
- If he was the Great White Hope for the local mines, why isn't he better known? Wouldn't his arrival from South Wales have been noted in company or landowner's records?
- A good man would be held in high esteem by his employer and would have been hard to poach.
Aarrgghh! I'm getting myself confused! ;D Keith
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Post by keithj on Jun 27, 2008 17:15:54 GMT
I think this one was Edward DAVIES bapt Oct 14, 1756, Wrexham St. Giles, son of Robert DAVIES, collier of Brymbo. Heather, I would have said Annette's chap more likely to be the Edward who married Margaret Hughes in 1788, by licence, at Wrexham St Giles. That Edward was a joiner. The Edward you quote is more likely to be my ancestor on the grounds of his father's being a collier. Mining employed very young children back then and the system used tended to mean that the children worked as part of the team that included their father - and possibly their mother as well. Even if the children did no more than open the ventilation doors to allow adults through that would save time and, as always, time was money. Given that the children went underground from the age of six in some cases, I doubt if a miner's child would be apprenticed away from the pit. Do you have any more children for this Robert? Keith
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Post by keithj on Jul 2, 2008 20:47:14 GMT
The site for Pen Y Bryn independant chapel was secured in 1783, it is in Chapel Street Wrexham. .......... The Salisbury Park church is a much more modern building and the congregation moved there from the Pen Y Bryn chapel, which is still standing. I just wanted to add little something extra to this. I checked the 25in OS map for Wrexham, which was drawn about 1870, and the Congregational Chapel is still shown as being in Chapel Street. Salisbury Park is now Salisbury Road but was then a cul-de-sac with large properties on one side and the grounds to Oteley House on the other. Keith
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