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Post by lynwen on Oct 17, 2007 22:12:40 GMT
My Great Grandfather was from Coedpoeth, well that's what is recorded on one census. I've found his details on several censuses and I've also got a copy of his marriage certificate, unfortunately when calculating his age the result is always different so he either didn't know his exact age OR he wasn't always truthful. The only bit of consistent info is that he was born in Denbighshire, sometimes recorded as Mwnglawdd, sometimes recorded as Coedpoeth. So where does this leave me, where do I start - here's what I've got
Name: Edward Williams Census: 1871 age 30 - born 1841 Mwnglawdd, Denbighshire 1881 age 35 - born 1846 Wrexham, Flintshire 1891 age 47 - born 1844 Denbigh 1901 age 55 - born 1846 Wrexham Marriage: 13/12/1873 - of full age Father: Thomas Williams - Miner Died: 15 February 1923 - Caernarvonshire age 85 - therefore born 1838
My Grandmother used to say they were related to a Carrington Family.
Any help to point me in the right direction would be brill !
Thanks - Lynwen
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Post by annedw on Oct 18, 2007 11:02:14 GMT
Hello Lynwen. Mwywnglawdd is the old name for the Minera area. There is a lot of info on this site from Carringtons, so perhaps if you alter the subject box to include Carrington / Williams it might catch their eye. Edward will possibly be in the Parish Registers, do you know his mothers name. If you know the names of any siblings it would help in finding the right family. This might be Edward in 1851 HO 107/ piece 2503 folio 738 page 10 Eisteddfod Cottage Minera.Evan Edwards head 64 .farmer b Llanshurst Denbs. Barbara Edwards wife 77? b Minera Thomas Williams Son in law 27 Leadminer b LLandegla Elizabeth Williams Dau 36 b Minera Edward Williams Nephew 7 b MineraMary Anne Williams Neice 5 b Minera Sarah Jane Williams Neice 1 b Minera So, from this we have that Elizabeth Williams was previously Edwards, and Evan and Barbara Edwards were Edward s grandparents, also he had siblings Mary Anne and Sarah Jane. What a find, three generations on one census. ;D I think Minera PRs would be your best bet.
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Post by hilary on Oct 18, 2007 13:09:50 GMT
I can't find Edward Williams on the 1881 or 1901 - do I need more information (I stopped looking after that!) Hilary
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Post by lynwen on Oct 18, 2007 19:07:47 GMT
Oops - sorry. Should have stated that on the 1871,1881 Census Edward Williams lives on the Lleyn Peninsula as a Lodger and working as a static engine driver, probably at the lead mines. On 1891 census he lives in Talysarn, by Caernarfon and by 1901 in Y Fron, Upper Llandwrog, by Caernarfon where my family lived until 1997. My grandmother states they were related to Tom Carrington, he used to visit my family home when used to adjudicate at local Eisteddfodau. Edward Williams' father was Thomas Williams (on his marriage certificate). Do not know his mother's name. annedw - Many thanks - this is a huge possible - as Edward's first child was named Thomas after his father - his second child was named Elizabeth - have his mother ? He also had 2 other daughters, Anne and Jane named after his sisters Thank you Lynwen
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Post by annedw on Oct 18, 2007 20:35:46 GMT
Ok found him now, I wonder where he was in 1861. Going back to 1851 , Evan`s birthplace, I crosschecked his census entry and it`s trancribed as Llanshurst, I`m sure this is wrong, I can`t think of anywhere like that, the closest to me is Llanwrst, but Perhaps Minera or Llandegla PRs will have marriage to Barbara, it`s quite an unusual name for those times.
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Post by lynwen on Oct 18, 2007 20:44:25 GMT
Ok - I will have a search for Evan and Barbara's marriage -
You have been a great help Thank you v.m. Lynwen
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Post by annedw on Oct 18, 2007 21:22:30 GMT
If you to Minera.com main page, scroll down and you`ll see Parish records online , photo of a church. This is a link to a great site. I`ve found in Minera the following baptisms. 5 June 1853 William s/o Thomas and Elizabeth Williams. father occ agent , Eistedfodd. 14 Oct 1849 Sarah Jane " " father miner Eistedfodd 15 June 1845 Mary Ann " " father miner Cae fadog. This is the same family from 1851, but there is no record of Edward being baptised there.
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Post by lynwen on Oct 18, 2007 21:59:57 GMT
ok - I've now found those baptism records, again my great grandfather Edward Williams had a son named William Williams. I have searched the 1861 census and cannot find a record for E Wms or his parents Thomas Williams/Elizabeth Williams - still searching .... I have however found Mary Anne and Sarah Jane as servants.
On 1861 Census Mary Anne is now a servant for John Carrington .....
Thank you Lynwen
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Post by lynwen on Oct 18, 2007 22:18:09 GMT
I have found Burial Records for
Evan Edwards - Eisteddford - 19/04/1954 - Age 67 Barbara Edwards - Bwlchgwyn - 11/05/1853 - Age 80
If/When I can be sure I am a descendant then how easy would it be for me to find their grave if I visited?
Lynwen
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Post by shedevil on Oct 18, 2007 22:58:30 GMT
This is a possible marriage record for Thomas Williams to Elizabeth Edwards Wrexham 1843 april may June Qtr, Vol 27 page 426
this is the only record relating to a couple with the names as stated above between the period of 1841 to 1851
hope this helps
Tracey ;D
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Post by annedw on Oct 19, 2007 17:43:44 GMT
An amazing coincidence going on here. In 1861 you have Mary Ann Williams as a servant for John Carrington, also Thomas Carrington aged 2, so is he the Tom your gran knows about 1871 and Mary Ann is still there aged 24, Tom aged 11, the address is the Cross Foxes, I know it and it`s still there. Fast forward to 1901 and the Cross Foxes is being run by Llewelyn Carrington,and amazingly one of the servants is Louisa Allies ( Alice ) Jones. aged 19. Louisa is my grandmother . I never met her because she died in 1903 six weeks after giving birth to my Dad. ( I`m not that ancient, Dad was getting on a bit when I was born ;D ;D ) You asked about the graves, there is a site with photos of headstones in Minera, I had a look at it, some are very old. But there is one of John and Sarah of the Cross Foxes there. This is the link. www.clwyd-mi.co.uk/html/minera.html
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Post by lynwen on Oct 19, 2007 21:01:52 GMT
It is a conincidence - check my next message
Probably Tom (aged 11 at 181's son?? ) This is the Tom my grandmother knew. He used to call at my family home when he was adjudicating at local Eisteddfodau. My gran always used to say he was he father's cousin (Edward Williams) - my mother remembers him calling at our house (before I was born), my mother v.recently passed away.
Here's some info. on Tom.
CARRINGTON, THOMAS (Tom) , (‘Pencerdd Gwynfryn ’; 1881-1961), musician and printer; b. at Gwynfryn, Bwlch-gwyn, near Wrexham, Denb., 24 Nov. 1881, the son of John Carrington (a descendant of one of the families that migrated from Cornwall to work in the Denbighshire lead mines) and Winifred (née Roberts), a native of Bryneglwys. He spent his early years at Gwynfryn and was educated at Bwlch-gwyn school. After leaving school he was apprenticed as a printer at Hughes and Son, Wrexham. He m. Mildred Mary Jones, Minera, in 1905 and went to live in Coed-poeth where he followed his trade as a printer and as a music publisher. From his early childhood it was obvious that he had a special talent as a musician. At the age of nine he had been appointed organist at the Wesleyan Methodist church at Gwynfryn and he held that office for about fifteen years. He studied music in his spare time through the medium of tonic sol-fa and with Morton Bailey in Wrexham. Later he was organist for over fifty years at Rehoboth Wesleyan Methodist chapel at Coed-poeth and he became well known as an eisteddfod adjudicator, conductor and composer. He was music editor of Y Winllan and Yr Eurgrawn and he was secretary of the committee responsible for the music of Llyfr Emynau a Thonau y Methodistiaid Calfinaidd a Wesleaidd (1929). He was also a keen eisteddfodwr and he served as the general secretary of the 1933National Eisteddfod at Wrexham. His most important musical compositions include Concwest Calfari (SATB anthem 1912), Hen weddi deuluaidd fy nhad (contralto/baritone solo 1910), and Gwynfryn and Bryn-du (hymn tunes). He was also the author of the handbook Yr Ysgol Gân (Gee, 1957) and Doniau Da (1955) that contains a number of his original tunes and songs, as well as arrangements of hymn tunes. He d. in his home at Coed-poeth, 6 May 1961. In 1963 a memorial plaque was unveiled in Rehoboth Chapel, Coed-poeth. Bibliography: WwW (1937); Y Cymro, 29 Oct. 1959, 18 May 1961 and 31 Oct. 1963; Yr Eurgrawn, Aug. 1961.
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Post by lynwen on Oct 19, 2007 21:08:28 GMT
You have been a great help. I have been searching for details on my great-grandfathers' for more than 3 years.
When you first replied to my call for help your alias did send shivers down my back. Your alias is 'annedw' - my father (Edward Williams' grandson) was more affectionately know locally in this area as NEDW, I realise your name is probably Anne or Ann but all I could see was nedw - how wierd is that.
If you visit Caernarfon and asked anyone if they knew Nedw, or 'bus Nedw' then anyone would be able to tell you who he was. My father passed away in 1999 - he was well known in the Caernarfon area as a business man - he ran his own Coach company, my brother still runs the company today - SilverStarholidays.com
My gran used to say she was related to Tom C. - if this is the case then maybe later documents will give us a clue.
Many thanks Regards, Lynwen
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Post by hilary on Oct 19, 2007 22:11:13 GMT
"I have found Burial Records for
Evan Edwards - Eisteddford - 19/04/1954 - Age 67 Barbara Edwards - Bwlchgwyn - 11/05/1853 - Age 80"
I can't find any monumental inscriptions in Bwlchgwyn for Barbara Edwards, perhaps the grave in unmarked? Do you know whether the burial was at Christ Church, Bethesda or Salem?
Hilary
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Post by sceptrelady on Oct 20, 2007 6:51:06 GMT
Hi all Not sure how all this fits, but here is some more info to muddy the waters! Tom Carrington (b 1881) was my great uncle. His parents were John Carrington and Winifred Roberts. John Carrington born 1852 had a younger sister named Alice Carrington born May 2, 1854. Alice married an Elias Edwards in 1871 and they had a daughter named Barbara Edwards born in 1873. Barbara Edwards was therefore first cousin to Tom Carrington the bard. In 1895 Barbara Edwards married a William Williams (born c1869 Treuddyn) and there were two children alive on the 1901 Francis Carrington Williams c1896 and John Elias Williams c1899. Does this help or muddy the waters further Heather
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Post by sceptrelady on Oct 20, 2007 7:56:44 GMT
One more thought. On the 1901 census Barbara Williams is described as Maria Carrington's daughter however this was a mistake as she was Maria's GRAND daughter. Maria consistently stated on censuses that she was born in Treuddyn - perhaps the family or the census taker listed William Williams' place of birth incorrectly as well??
In 1891 Barbara age 18 and another cousin Sinah, age 12, were helping Maria run the Tyn-y-Capel Inn as Francis had died a few days prior. There was a family living next door: William Williams, age 50, platelayer, born Denbigh Llanfair Elizabeth " " , age 58, " " " William, " " , son , age 24, collier coal " " Ann, daughter, age 18, born Llanarmon
I wondered if this was the William Williams who married Barbara Edwards but the age was off and so was the place of birth compared to the 1901??? Haven't investigated further.
Heather
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Post by annedw on Oct 20, 2007 9:10:40 GMT
Hilary, The burial records are from the Parish Records site, and they are buried in Minera, Bwlchgwyn is where Barbara was living, I guess it is Evans wife from the age. I wonder if he / she was married before, there is quite a difference.
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Post by sceptrelady on Oct 20, 2007 9:23:37 GMT
Found in Minera PRs
Elizabeth EDWARDS baptised June 6, 1813 born Jun 3rd father Evan EDWARDS, miner & mother Barbara, formerly ROBERTS abode Minera
also born to same parents: Edward EDWARDS, baptized Nov 27, 1814
Going back to poss. Carrington connections. Tom's grandmother was born Sinah Williams baptized Feb 11, 1821 in Bryneglwys. She has six siblings so possibly the connection came from there? They were Edward Williams Oct 18, 1812 William Williams Mar 12, 1815 Sophie Williams Sep 14, 1817 John Williams Apr 6, 1823 Mary Williams Feb 22, 1826 Enoch Williams Sep 12, 1830
Only trouble is they were all baptized in Bryneglwys.
Do you have an Ernest Williams in your family?? He married one of Tom's sisters and I've no idea where he was from.
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Post by annedw on Oct 21, 2007 8:09:06 GMT
HAVE A LOOK AT THIS AGAIN, The children are down as nephew and neice, but if Elizabeth was Evans daughter then surely they would be Grandchildren. Any ideas This might be Edward in 1851 HO 107/ piece 2503 folio 738 page 10 Eisteddfod Cottage Minera. Evan Edwards head 64 .farmer b Llanshurst Denbs. Barbara Edwards wife 77? b Minera Thomas Williams Son in law 27 Leadminer b LLandegla Elizabeth Williams Dau 36 b Minera Edward Williams Nephew 7 b Minera Mary Anne Williams Neice 5 b Minera Sarah Jane Williams Neice 1 b Minera
So, from this we have that Elizabeth Williams was previously Edwards, and Evan and Barbara Edwards were Edward s grandparents, also he had siblings Mary Anne and Sarah Jane.[/i]
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Post by sceptrelady on Oct 21, 2007 10:33:33 GMT
There are some missing pages from the 1861 census of Minera. I know because I've never been able to locate my Carringtons in 1861 either. Lynwen, do you have Edward's birth certificate??
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Post by lynwen on Oct 21, 2007 11:42:43 GMT
aanedw - Yes, Edward should be down as Grandson but he's down as Nephew - bit confused now. I haven't got Edward's birth certificate as up to now I didn't really know his birth year which is really how I got stuck. Calculating his birth year on each census gives results ranging from 1841 to 1846?? Also his gravestone gives his d.o.d. as 15 Feb, 1923 age 85 that gives me year of birth as 1838 I haven't been able to confirm his age when he died the 'gro' can't find his regsitration. What I have got is his marriage certificate - dated - December 13th 1873 when he is of full age and his father was Thomas Williams, a Miner. I'm pretty sure you have given me the correct Edward Williams. Lynwen
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Post by lynwen on Oct 21, 2007 11:44:09 GMT
Sceptrelady I haven't been able to pinpoint his year of birth up to now - what I do have though is his marriage certificate dated - December 13th 1873 when he is of full age and his father was Thomas Williams, a Miner.
Lynwen
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Post by annedw on Oct 21, 2007 12:56:11 GMT
Found an Edward Williams in Mar Qtr 1923 Registration dist Caernarvon , but aged 75 this gives date of birth c 1848. So now the 1851 census is a bit out. I am going to Wrexham museum this week, so I`ll have a look at some PRs to see if I can find Edward. I`ll check out the marriage of Thomas Williams as well. Hopefully it`ll do away with all the guess work
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Post by lynwen on Oct 21, 2007 21:00:39 GMT
aanedw I've also seen that entry and tempted to get the certificate. I thought the gravestone would have the correct dates, but who knows?
Hoping you find something at the Museum.
Many thanks Lynwen
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Post by sceptrelady on Oct 22, 2007 8:35:43 GMT
Hi Lynwen If I were you I would write a letter or go to see the Wrexham Registrar for BMDs - depending on where you are located. They may be willing to search the registers for Edward Williams births in Minera father Thomas mother Elizabeth, over a several year period. I've just done a search on North Wales BMD and these are the Edward Williams Wrexham district birth cert numbers 1838 WM/001/58 1839 WM/001/72 1840 WM/001/38 1841 WM/003/38 1842 none 1843 WM/004/69 & WM/005/2 1844/1845 none I know I received a lot of help from the registrars in Caernarfon and in Bangor when I needed help trying to find my John Joneses ;D They sometimes charge extra to trace by village/parents names but much better than paying for umpteen certificates from the GRO. And it's not as if there are millions of them during the time period you are checking Remember that the local registers are not only filed in date order but are separated into districts so in some ways easier to locate than all in date order over a large area. Another possibility - Given the discrepancy in the ages of Elizabeth "Edwards" Williams (age 36) and Thomas Williams (age 27) in 1851, is it possible that Edward was not Thomas' son but Elizabeth's from a previous marriage? ESPECIALLY if his year of birth of 1824 checks out in censuses 1871 and 1881? He is hardly likely to have fathered the child at age 16 in 1841 ?? Tracey's marriage in 1843 between Thomas & Elizabeth Edwards should definitely be checked to see if Elizabeth was a widow or spinster. It is possible that Edward may have been registered as Edward EDWARDS??If Edward was brought up as Thomas' son from a young age he could well have declared him as "father" on the marriage certificate when in fact this was not the case. This happened with one of mine as well
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Post by sceptrelady on Oct 22, 2007 9:05:03 GMT
I checked the Llandegla PR transcript 1813-1837 for Thomas WILLIAMS - Only two
May 28, 1815 Thomas, s/o Thomas WILLIAMS (lab) & Anne, abode Ty yn y Bedw
Apr 15, 1821 Thomas, s/o William WILLIAMS (lab) & Anne, abode Hendy
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Post by lynwen on Oct 22, 2007 11:07:55 GMT
sceptrelady
OK - I agree, I need to get Elizabeth&Thomas marriage cert. to get her status at time of marriage. I thought maybe if Edward was born 1844/1846 then Thomas could be his father, but if there are no records for those years then maybe he was Elizabeth's son.
Diolch Lynwen
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Post by lynwen on Oct 22, 2007 11:53:34 GMT
Also found this on Minera Baptism records
Thomas Williams Baptised 21-Mar-1924 Son of Edward Williams - Miner and Son of Mary
This is for Minera - Census says he was born in Llandegla - but could this be him?
Lynwen
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Post by annedw on Oct 22, 2007 16:50:49 GMT
I looked again at the original Minera Prs, and there is no Edward Williams at all. PRs for Llandegla are not in Wrexham so no luck there. On Family search site there is a Barbra Roberts born 27 Jan 1774 Minera. Parents Robert Roberts and Mrs Roberts. This matches exactly for the 1851 census. The marriages in Minera start at 1845 in the Museum records, so no joy with the marriage of Thomas and Elizabeth. Not much to add then really.
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Post by lynwen on Oct 22, 2007 18:17:31 GMT
aanedw - thanks
Where are the Parish Records held? Are they available to the public if I visit ?
Also Evan Edwards and Barabara are buried in Minera Cemetry - are these transcribed?
Lynwen
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