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Post by eluned on Sept 12, 2008 8:23:15 GMT
Generally when doing family history, you have to work backwards, death, marriage, birth as each certificate will contain info that will enable you to go back further. Or so we hope There are several books out there to help and you may find certain websites useful too. Try this one, just click on it and it will take you there. www.bbc.co.uk/history/trail/familyhistory/and this is another one that looks very good www.familyhistoryonline.net/general/basics.shtmlWith regard ordering certificates, you may order them from The General Register Office at Southport, you will find a link to this on the Family History online site, or you can order them from the Register Office in the district in which the event was originally registered ie Wrexham. Southport will send you the copy of the original, local offices may send typed, handwritten or actual copies. Here's a link to the Wrexham site where you can do searches of the BMD indexes but it is not complete, and you will also find the contact details for the register office. www.wrexham.gov.uk/english/community/genealogy/MarriageIndexSearchForm.cfm
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Post by annedw on Sept 12, 2008 15:10:35 GMT
An alterative to buying certificates at £7 each is to get copies of the original page from the Parish Registers. You must remember though that baptisms are not exact dates of birth and will not state who registered the birth. Marriages are an exact copy of the event Burial records might have date of death, but otherwise just date of burial, and not always the cause and place of death.
The nice thing about marriages is that they have the actual signatures of the REAL people, when you buy a copy then it is usually a typed copy of just the details. Depending on how far away from Wrexham you are, the museum here has all the Parish registers you will need for Minera/ Coedpoeth and Wrexham. You can copy them for about 30p. Civil marriages - are dfferent, you will have to get the certificate.
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Post by claudiaa on Sept 15, 2008 9:43:42 GMT
Dear All Thank you for your suggestions - it may be a little while before I can but will attempt to in the next couple of months I hope - I'm in Norfolk but will need to book holiday etc. Meantime, I can keep busy on the research/verification to make better use of my time when I come over. Claudia
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Post by annedw on Sept 15, 2008 19:14:05 GMT
These two entries are in the catalogue on Denbighshire Records Office website. You have to contact the office with the Ref numbers and then they tell you what they are - already done . Could be of interest. I wonder if it is GG the doctor ? www.denbighshire.gov.uk/en-gb/DNAP-6ZQKTQDD/HB/856 Conveyance of a house at Bwlchgwyn from Charles James Gibbons to William Lester, 1892. DD/BE/112 Correspondence and papers concerning application of George Gibbons, Adwy'r Clawdd, for a spirit licence. 1894-5.
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Post by claudiaa on Sept 18, 2008 22:39:30 GMT
I have done as suggested and thought you would like to know the results. Working from the dates & relatives which I knew to be correct (mostly verified from family bible) I now have:- My GM: Dora Lavinia Blanche Gibbons Birth, Marriage & Death certificates: Born 18.04.1883, Married Liscard 17.06.1912 to Patrick Joseph O'Malley (33) Stevedore, Died 14.03.1965 in Leicester. Death Certificate for her sister: Penelope Kate Gwendoline died 19.01.1966 (Aged 76) in Abergale Chest Hospital - Widow of Herbert Hemington (a retired PO Engineer) of Colwyn Bay. Death Certificate for her Father: Charles James Gibbons aged 64 died 16.07.1904 at Plas Maelor, Coedpoeth, Bersham. He is listed as "formerly a Lime Works Manager" and COD was heart disease Exhaustion. It was registered by his son S. L Gibbons who is registered as residing at Plas Maelor. Am still awaiting a copy of his marriage certificate and then to look for his birth etc I have located a Stanley L Gibbons in the 1891 Census (Aged 9) living at Plas Maelor listed as son of CJG. So I guess that means I'm on the right track, thanks to you all ...... So I'' keep going. Have you any suggestions as to where I might locate any photos of the Lime Works and it's staff - it might be good to see if there were any named ones. Kind Regards Claudia A
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Post by claudiaa on Sept 26, 2008 18:15:08 GMT
Hi All I am now in the process of verifying information and trying to get a little further. A couple (sorry 3) of questions.... 1) From the 1901 census it would appear that a Stanley (S or L) Gibbons was listed as a 'Border' at 25 New Hall View, Ruabon and a trooper in 88th Company Imperial Yeomanry. He was born Denbighshire - Adwy so is possibly a son of my GGFather. A Stanley Gibbons was listed as present at and registering the death of Charles James Gibbons. I know that you can't advertise but in order to follow this through would you suggest 'Ancestry' site? 2) I obviously need to try and locate obituaries - is the only way a direct visit to the area to find possible local paper obituaries and in which case where would they be held? 3) Once I have verified various pieces of information, is there someone else who needs the verified information? It seems that there are a lot of you out there researching etc and I don't want to hog information! Kind Regards and Thanks Claudia A
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Post by annedw on Sept 27, 2008 9:01:42 GMT
Hi Claudia, Wrexhams museum, the AN Palmer centre has copies of local newspapers on micro film. If you have dates, then they may do a search for you, but there wil be a charge. Or, I will look for you for FREE, I live very close and often pop in. It seems lots of us use A***** and there are some military records, I say some as a lot were destroyed in a fire. Again, I can have a look on the A site for you. You can ask the National Archeves at Kew for a search to see if his War service Records are there, but wait a couple of days and see what we can find. As for the info you find, you can add it on this site,, often people just` Googling` find us though names they are reseaching and it may be of use and interest to others, The weather is lovely and I`m going to make the most of it now, so will get back to this later. Stanley L Gibbons boarder. aged 20 in 1901. He does seem to be the same son of Charles J Gibbons in 1891. Would he have fought in WWI though ? There`s nothing showing on A**** military records for Stanley L. Birth registerd Wrexham 1882 March qtr Stanley Lester Gibbons Marriage registered West Derby 1907 Dec qtr Stanley Lester Gibbons to either Lilian Whitefoot or Frances Smith.
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Post by annedw on Sept 27, 2008 14:05:54 GMT
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Post by claudiaa on Sept 27, 2008 16:25:55 GMT
Dear Annedw
Thank you for the very kind offer - I wouldn't have thought of obituaries or even that GGF & GGF might have had them had it not been suggested on this forum!
When you are passing therefore, I would love to take you up on the offer. (If you ever need anything from Norfolk I will gladly reciprocate.)
The two people that may well have obituaries are:-
Charles James Gibbons - Death Certificate shows he died 16.07.1904 (Aged 64) at Plas Maelor, Coedpoeth, Bersham. Listed as "formerly a Lime Works Manager" and COD was heart disease Exhaustion. It was registered by his son S. L Gibbons who is noted as residing at Plas Maelor and 'present at the death'.
William Frederick Gibbons (Born approx 1809 Whitchurch, Salop) was listed as an Attorney and listed as deceased at the time of CJG's marriage in 1868.
Thanks too for your efforts on Stanley - I settle down to look at the sites you mentioned when the sun goes down and do some further research! Nice to have it while it lasts ;D
Another thankyou to from my Mother - up till a few weeks ago she didn't have nearly as much 'history' or roots as she has now!
Kind Regards ClaudiaA
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Post by annedw on Sept 27, 2008 16:46:21 GMT
These are the only deaths I found from 1837 to 1868. None are in this area, so I can`t help with these. Also there s no age at death given ao we don`t know which is the right one. Only the actual death certificate will have that info. Deaths Dec 1860 Gibbons William Frederick Birmingham 6d 25 ------------------------- Deaths Sep 1865 Gibbons William Frederick Alcester 6d 336 ------------------------ Deaths Dec 1865 Gibbons William Frederick St.Saviour 1d 14 Charles should be easy enough.
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Post by annedw on Oct 1, 2008 17:11:45 GMT
If you want a copy of this , contact the AN Palmer centre in Wrexham and they will send you one for a small charge.
Wrexham Advertizer Sat July 23 1904 The death took place on Saturday morning past of Capt. Charles James Gibbons of Plas Maelor after an illness of several months duration. the deceased was born in Warick and came to the district about 36 years ago. For many years he was connected to Lesters Lime Works, he was a property owner and very respected throughout the district. The funeral was on Monday and the remains interred in Minera Churchyard. Cheif mourners were= George and Stanley Gibbons, sons. George - brother. Wiliam Davies, brother in law, Randolph and Trevor Davies nephews. Wreaths sent by the family and Mr & Mrs Davies Bwylchgwyn Miss Simons, Kelso House Wrexham Messrs Halons? and Mr Grant, Aintree Mr Robinson Adwy.
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Post by claudiaa on Oct 1, 2008 21:44:05 GMT
Dear Annedw Thank you for going and spending time looking this up - I will obtain a copy as suggested - it all helps build the picture. You will be interested to know that having looked at Lee's website I have been lucky enough to obtain a copy of his photo of the grave in Minera churchyard, which confirms the interrment of CJG. His wife Mary Ellen shares the memorial and died in Oct 1917 - I wonder why she wasn't considered a 'chief' morner.... perhaps none of the female relatives attended the funeral Once again, many thanks. I'll keep you all updated on progress as it happens. Kind Regards Claudia A
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Post by sceptrelady on Oct 1, 2008 21:54:21 GMT
Hi Claudia I'm not sure if it was a Welsh custom but I can remember my Mother saying that it was inappropriate for women to attend a funeral - she was very Victorian in her thinking ;D Apparently women were expected to stay home out of sight and prepare the food for the tea after the funeral Heather
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Post by claudiaa on Oct 2, 2008 9:08:06 GMT
Thanks Heather ... It just shows how little I learnt in History!! This sort of 'social ettiquette' is absolutely fascinating and builds a more colourfull picture doesn't it. I hope my GGMother's baking was better than mine, my cakes could be disguised in the quarry! Claudia
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Post by annedw on Oct 2, 2008 11:53:48 GMT
The great thing about obits is that you can pick up all sorts of clues. Miss Simons, Kelso House Wrexham Is she one of the teachers at the school . 1891 16 King Street Hannah Simons Head single 52yrs principal of school B.Durham Harriet " sister single 36 B.Durham William Davies was a brother in law, so who was Charles sister then. This family are interesting. I `m sure the house will still be standing, 1901 7 Ruthin Road, Bwylchgwyn Parish of Brymbo, ( between Westminster Arms and Prion Chapel) William Davies 47 Elementery Schoolmaster b Bersham Sarah Ann wife 46 b Birmingham Randolph son 19 Auctioneers apprentice b Llanrhaidr Montgomeryshire Bertha Beat(rice) dau 17 b Brymbo Reginald Trevor son 13, Award ?? for pupil teacherships b Brymbo Edward Fdk ( Frederick) son 11 b Brymbo William Ewert son 6 b Brymbo. Even though the children are `born Brymbo` I would guess this means the parish , and that they were actually born in Bwlchgwyn. The publican of Westminister Arms in 1901 was Henry Wilkinson aged 43 b Hope ( might help someboby else ) ================================ 1891 The family are living at Bwlchgwyn Board School, close to the Post Office and the Westminster Arms. William Davies 37 Elementery Schoolmaster Harriet Ellen dau 13 b Llangynog Monts Mary Florence dau 11 b Llanrhaiadr Denbs ? Reginald Trevor son 3 b Bwlchgwyn Edward Frederick son 1 " Martha Evans visitor single 17 Domestic servant ( on holidays) b Bwylchgwyn Sarah Ann is not at home on the night of the census. Neither is Bertha Beatrice, but this is interersting. 1891 Bryn Coch Brymbo. Bertha Davies visitor 7 b Brymbo. Edward Roberts head 49 Calvanistic Methodist minister.b Brymbo Jane wife 46 b " Jane A dau 24 Assitant school vistor. There are another eight children at home Still dunno where Sarah Ann is. 1881 living at the Board School House, Llanrhaiadr yn Mochnnant Monts. Close to the Post Office and Bethesda Chapel. William Davies 27 certified elementery teacher Sarah Ann wife 26 Harriet Ellen dau 3 Llangynog Mary Florence dau 1 b Llanrhaiadr Ann Jane Griffiths servent 14 domestic servent general b Wrexham.
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Post by annedw on Oct 2, 2008 13:12:27 GMT
Ok found this for 1861 Kings Norton Charlotte Gibbons head widow 58 b Warwick Joan dau unm 28 b Stratford on Avon William son 27 architect b Kenilworth Amelia Walker servant 15 b Birmingham. This will match up with this death. Deaths Dec 1860 Gibbons William Frederick Birmingham 6d 25
1841 Kenilworth New Street William Gibbons 32 independant means, not born in county Charlotte " 35, yes " Joan " 9 yes "
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Post by eluned on Oct 2, 2008 15:08:19 GMT
Death registered Charlotte Gibbons Dec 1/4 1868 Kings Norton Marriage Joan Gibbons to Walter Orminston Mar 1/4 1862 St Helens, Witton (northwich) Cheshire central 158/2/167 1871 Hampstead St John, London 17 Belseize? Park Walter Orminston Head 44 Banker b. Bandor, Denbigh (would this be Bangor on Dee?) Joan wife 39 B.Stratford on Avon Alice J. daur 8 B.Hong Kong, China Walter son 6 ditto Mary E. daur 5 b.Wilts, Rha(--) Evan son 3 B. Middlesex, London Andrew L. son 2 ditto Maud C. daur 1 ditto Also nursery governess, 2x housemaids, cook and a nurse!
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Post by annedw on Oct 2, 2008 16:50:38 GMT
Bandor, Denbigh (would this be Bangor on Dee?)It would be `yes. In 1851 I found Walter Ormiston 24 a bankers clerk born Ruabon He`s living close to `The Nursery`Dodington, Whitchurch. Ruabon and Bangor are not that far apart, but really Bangor is in Flints. In 1881 he` from Ruabon again. I can`t suss this Sarah Ann Davies thing out though, how else could William be Charles` Br in Law. if he didn`t marry his sister ,
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Post by eluned on Oct 2, 2008 18:29:35 GMT
Hi Claudia ;D You may or may not have noticed a site mentioned on the main page, Minera parish records? On this site, many kind thanks to Shedevil , we have access to various registers. I found this: Minera St Mary's parish churchMarriage 1 June 1868 Charles James Gibbons, accountant, bachelor father William Frederick Gibbons, deceased, attorney, Adwy'r Clawdd. To Mary Ellen Ashford, under age, spinster father Frederick Ashford, deceased, engraver, Offa Cottage Witnesses Frederick Ashford & Sarah Ann Williams William Lister & George Gibbons L.S.A I think I may have got it! ;D William Davies m Sarah Ann Ashford Dec 1/4 1876 She is his wife's sister.
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Post by eluned on Oct 2, 2008 18:48:48 GMT
1861 Birmingham sch 151, f.49, pg.29 Frederick Ashford H M 46 gun engraver employing 2 boys, B.Birmingham Ellen W M 42 B.Little Sutton, Cheshire Frederick son 16 gun engraver Mary E. daur 13 Joseph son 11 Mary A. daur 9 Sarah A. daur 7 Emily daur 1mth Children all born Birmingham, Warwick.
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Post by claudiaa on Oct 2, 2008 22:35:26 GMT
Hi Claudia, Perhaps your family story about the finishing school will prove to be true but in 1891 Dora is still in the area. I would guess that it would be young ladies that attended finishing schools so perhaps at 7yrs she was a little young. 1891 census Wrexham Regis 16 King StreetHannah Simons Head single 52yrs principal of school B.Durham Harriet " sister single 36 B.Durham Annie " neice single 24 B.Westphalia, Germany Eliza A Davies boarder 11 scholar B.Denbighshire, Sum-----? Dora L B Gibbons boarder 7 scholar B.Denbighshire, AdwyclawddJane Owen serv single 22 B."" Yes, you all have a very keen minds! Eluned found the above earlier, which shows a Hannah Simons in 1891 census. I had read the obituary but did not think to back track over what else it might be telling and never thought it could link and lead this far! I am now off to read thoroughly. Claudia
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Post by claudiaa on Oct 2, 2008 22:56:01 GMT
Hi Claudia ;D You may or may not have noticed a site mentioned on the main page, Minera parish records? On this site, many kind thanks to Shedevil , we have access to various registers. I found this: Minera St Mary's parish churchMarriage 1 June 1868 Charles James Gibbons, accountant, bachelor father William Frederick Gibbons, deceased, attorney, Adwy'r Clawdd. To Mary Ellen Ashford, under age, spinster father Frederick Ashford, deceased, engraver, Offa Cottage Witnesses Frederick Ashford & Sarah Ann Williams William Lister & George Gibbons L.S.A I think I may have got it! ;D William Davies m Sarah Ann Ashford Dec 1/4 1876 She is his wife's sister. Help - I'm impressed but a little confused! From you research we have Sarah Ann Ashford (therefore Charles James' sister in law) as wife of William Davies - making him CJ's brother in law as per the Obituary. Is this the same Sarah Ann Williams listed above, or have I got lost somewhere? Claudia
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Post by eluned on Oct 3, 2008 9:17:39 GMT
Hi Annette and Claudia, I'm confused too Am I missing something, this would not suprise me in the least ugh I don't understand the 20yr gap thing? Surely this was a problem if Sarah Ann was a Gibbons but not if she's a Ashford. Sarah Ann Ashford born Birmingham in 1854 I put the quote in to show Ashford and not Sarah Ann Williams. Who is she? By the way how old did you have to be to be a witness? You could be married at 12yrs up to 1929 I think it was, so one would assume you could be a witness at 12 too
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Post by annedw on Oct 3, 2008 14:11:21 GMT
Yep , I think I`ve got it now. Charles Gibbons that died 1904 , married Mary Ellen Ashford. Mary Ellen had a younger sister Sarah Ann Ashford. Therefore Sarah Anne was his sister in law. Sarah Anne married Wiliam Davies and that made him Charles`s brother in law So really this family are not `blood` related to the Gibbons at all. 10/10 Eluned. Sometimes I think we stick to the ` relationship` charts a bit too much . Mind you, when I was little I called everyone in the street Aunty and Uncle , when they weren`t related at all. I`ve deleted my post with Sarah Ann Gibbons in , as it`s obviously well off the track.
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Post by annedw on Oct 3, 2008 14:18:10 GMT
Eluned found this 1871 Bersham George Gibbons H M 34 Assistant to surgeon + chemist b .Kenilworth Mary Ann " W 36 b.Birmingham Catherine A " daur 7 scholar B.Adwy
Could this be the marriage. Marriages Dec 1860 Gibbons George to Mary Ann Baker. Kings N(orton)
1861 Holt Street Wrexham Hugh Williams head 38 blacksmith b Carmarthenshire Mary Williams wife 34 b Denbigh Ellen A Williams 3mths b Wrexham Robert a Jones 23 ironmonger b Chester George Gibbons boarder 26 medical assistant Mary Ann wife 27 b Birm.
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Post by eluned on Oct 3, 2008 14:21:10 GMT
My clue was from a small photo of one of partners ancestors, obviously nothing to do with this, on the back is written from your sister to so and so... I puzzled over this for ages trying to work out who she was and in the end realised she wasn't his sister but sister in law.
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Post by annedw on Oct 4, 2008 12:35:08 GMT
William Gibbons, born c 1834. Brother of George and Charles. In 1861 he`s living at home in Kings Norton wih Mum Charlotte and sister Joan. He is unmarried and an architect. I can`t find him in later years, could this be his death. William Gibbons. 1865 Dec qtr Kings Norton. I wonder what made the Gibbons brothers and the Ashford families move to the Wrexham area. The Gibbons were obviously wealthy and well educated, how did William Frederick Gibbons b Whitchurch , make his money, well worth investigating. I found this - mentioning William Frederick Gibbons , gent of Kenilworth. You`ll have use the `find` box for Gibbons, it`s a large page. www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/A2A/records.aspx?cat=144-pa101_2-2&cid=-1&Gsm=2008-06-18A good source would be wills, I`m sure William Frederick b Whitchurch c 1808 and died 1860 and the two brothers would have made them. They can be a bit `stuffy` where money is involved, but a great source of information. This might be Walter Ormistons family , father maybe. Not sure about the area though Wigfair ?? www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=210-prob_sa_15&cid=1979&kw=ormiston#1979I can`t find any Gibbons wills on A2A online, but there must be some . This link explains a lot. www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/1183.htmMy local FHS society tell me that the National Probate Index they have covers wills from 1853 to 1940, in Alphabetical order for the years. Maybe your local archives will have the same index. Well worth a look at.
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Post by claudiaa on Oct 4, 2008 16:29:51 GMT
Hi Annedw You have been hard at work It is rather addictive I must say but absolutely fascinating and I will see what I can access locally. At the moment I'm trying to date some photos my mother has unearthed - not being gardening weather! The possible Orminston connection ... having 'Googled' I can find a Wigfair in St Asaph, Clwyd so yes, possibly a connection here. Yes I do wonder where the money was came from .... In the 1851 Census we have William (F) Gibbons H M 42 Int(ue--) ? of money B.Whitchurch, Salop in The Butts, Warwick At the time of Charles James' marriage at "Minera St Mary's parish church on 1 June 1868 he is listed as deceased but an attorney, Adwy'r Clawdd. So some investigation here needed too! Kind Regards Claudia
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Post by claudiaa on Oct 4, 2008 16:38:16 GMT
A little detective work that I have managed ... Miss Simons, Kelso House Wrexham Is she one of the teachers at the school . 1891 16 King Street Hannah Simons Head single 52yrs principal of school B.Durham Harriet " sister single 36 B.Durham There is a Kelso House on Grosvenor Rd, Wrexham (not far from King St) that is currently up for Let. I enquired of the Commercial Agent if it had, to their knowledge been a school. The man I spoke to said that no, prior to being offices it was always a private house but....... he would email me details of the 'school/convent' that was nearby as he did have an old plan which showed it and his Mother was a scholar there! Claudia
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Post by annedw on Oct 4, 2008 17:39:31 GMT
Just found this in a Wrexham Directory 1886 I have at home. Simons. The Misses, boarding and day school for young ladies and gentlemen. 16 King Street. Kelso House is on Grosvener Road, the next road to King Street. It is all very large buildings and probably not much changed since they were built. The school / convent, I`m almost certain was on Gerald Street, off Gros. Road. Anyway, the school on King Sreet , might or might not still be standing. There is a 15 but no 16. Both ends of King Street have buildings that look from the 19th c, but in the middle is an eysore of `modern` shops etc, built about 1964. Of course the numbers may have changed over the years. Another interesting find , may or not be linked. In a book called Old Wrexham , pictures, there is a photo of Gibbons Court 1933. Its described as 1,2,3 Gibbons Court with the rear of 32 - 40 Salop Road facing. Typical of the rabbit warren of small streets and courts found in Salop Road and Mount street area. They were cleared in 1930s as part of the slum clearance scheme. Charles was desrcibed as a propery owner in his obit, could have been his properties .
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