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Post by claudiaa on Sept 10, 2008 16:49:30 GMT
I am looking into my family history on my mothers side and would be grateful for some assistance.
I have discovered that my Gt Grandfather Charles J Gibbons (DOB 1837 approx) was Manager of the Lime Works and lived at Plas Maelor at the time of the 1891 census.
They had 6 children living with them at the time, my mother not having been born then.
I would be grateful for any further information about either his work, family or where he may have moved to as I cannot find him in the next census. I understand that Lesters Lime Company was amalgamated with Minera but really am at a loss as to where to start!
Any help would be appreciated.
Claudia A
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Post by eluned on Sept 10, 2008 17:12:03 GMT
Hi, 1901 Bersham Plas Maelor
Charles Jas Gibbons H M 64 living on own means B.Warwick ?, Kennilworth Mary E " W M 52 B.Birmingham Charlotte B " daur 15 B. DEN, Adwyclawdd Penelopy K G " " 13 B."" Dana L B " " 17 B. "" Louisa W M Jones granddaur 4 B."" Thomas W " grandson 2 B. ""
Also found in deaths Charles James Gibbons b.abt 1840 Died. Sept 1/4 1904 Wrexham
You may like to look under "Y Calch" for information on the limeworks. Above the first page for the forum are four sections for the different areas, click on Minera History and then at the top "Y Calch". You may want to check the directories for him too. There are also links to other limework sites that you may find useful, these are to the right hand side of the page.
Going out for my tea and a pint now so cheers ;D Good luck!
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Post by claudiaa on Sept 10, 2008 17:28:09 GMT
Hi thanks for the reply... I am new to this so how on earth did you get that so quickly? Also can you explain 1901 Bersham - is this where he was living in 1901? It is possible that t Dana L B "17" may well be my Grandmother Dora Lavinia Blanche - does the 17 relate to age, her DOB would be around 1884?
One other question - was Plas Maelor a village or does it refer to an area?
Many Many Thanks Claudia
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Post by annedw on Sept 10, 2008 19:15:27 GMT
A bit about Lesters Lime Works from Lost Names and Places by J C Davies. My version as it`s a bit long During the 19 c there were 2 quarries. The earliest was known as Eisteddfod. Probably the first to work it was John Burton of Minera Hall from 1820 till he died in 1860. William Lester came to Penygelli Hall, Coedpoeth a couple of years before then and took on the lease. Lester built 5 new kilns and a stone crusher, he had a railway branch line installed and soon sold all over the country. Hundreds of people would gather on the opposite side of the valley to watch the spectacular blasts that brought down about 20.000 tons of rock at a time. The idea saved a lot of time but once a huge rock about 30 tons blew across the river into Minera Lime Co`s quarry and they made Mr Lester remove it ;D ;D ;D Mr Lester died in 1897 aged 68
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Post by eluned on Sept 10, 2008 19:16:40 GMT
I have a subscription to a site which enables me to look for people/places in census returns. I wont say which one cos I don't think this site will alllow advertising so I just searched for Charles in the census for 1901. The birth, marriages and death indexes are also available on the same site. I would think that Dana could easily be Dora and yes sorry about the abreviations, 17 would be her age. Plas, I think, means mansion/large house. Hope this helps
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Post by eluned on Sept 10, 2008 19:23:23 GMT
The birth of Dora Lavinia B. Gibbons was registered in Wrexham Jun 1/4 1883 So yes it must be her.
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Post by annedw on Sept 10, 2008 19:40:45 GMT
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Post by eluned on Sept 10, 2008 21:16:24 GMT
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Post by claudiaa on Sept 10, 2008 22:11:20 GMT
Many Thanks to you both - I really have some further research to follow up on now. I have since spoken to my mother and she can remember my Grandmother talking about Plas Maelor (and prounounced it properly!) as being the large house the family lived in. She is now off to see if she can find any photos. It also transpires that my Grandmother spent some time in France in a 'finishing school for young ladies' which might explain why she did not appear in the census record where I tracked down Charles James. Other male members of the family aparently emmigrated to South Africa.
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Post by eluned on Sept 11, 2008 10:13:55 GMT
Hi Claudia, Perhaps your family story about the finishing school will prove to be true but in 1891 Dora is still in the area. I would guess that it would be young ladies that attended finishing schools so perhaps at 7yrs she was a little young.
1891 census Wrexham Regis 16 King Street Hannah Simons Head single 52yrs principal of school B.Durham Harriet " sister single 36 B.Durham Annie " neice single 24 B.Westphalia, Germany Eliza A Davies boarder 11 scholar B.Denbighshire, Sum-----? Dora L B Gibbons boarder 7 scholar B.Denbighshire, Adwyclawdd Jane Owen serv single 22 B.""
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Post by hilary on Sept 11, 2008 10:27:08 GMT
Lynn - fantastic websites you have discovered! You never know just how much is out there until you need to look for it....
Hilary
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Post by eluned on Sept 11, 2008 10:47:32 GMT
I only "googled", well actually "yahooed"! It looks as though this is possibly a different Plas Maelor anyway but if it was interesting... Another distraction from the task in hand! ;D
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Post by eluned on Sept 11, 2008 11:12:31 GMT
Hi Claudia ;D You may or may not have noticed a site mentioned on the main page, Minera parish records? On this site, many kind thanks to Shedevil , we have access to various registers. I found this: Minera St Mary's parish churchMarriage 1 June 1868 Charles James Gibbons, accountant, bachelor father William Frederick Gibbons, deceased, attorney, Adwy'r Clawdd. To Mary Ellen Ashford, under age, spinster father Frederick Ashford, deceased, engraver, Offa Cottage Witnesses Frederick Ashford & Sarah Ann Williams William Lister & George Gibbons L.S.A
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Post by eluned on Sept 11, 2008 11:27:34 GMT
Hi Annette, I do know where Plas Maelor is, but perhaps I haven't noticed it cos of the trees. I'm guessing it isn't visible from the road.
Do you know what the abbreviation LSA stands for? I found "googling" didn't quite work this time and came across some strange abbreviations for it. I'm guessing unless he was very forward thinking, George Gibbons was not a Logistic Support Analysis! ;D ;D ;D
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Post by annedw on Sept 11, 2008 11:58:14 GMT
As you know Lynn, all the hospitals you found are not our Plas Maelor. I found a couple more Gibbons marriages in Minera, and it would seem that George Gibbons was a Doctor. Found this explanation of LSA. Apothecaries Act (55 Geo.lll, c.194) for the "better regulating the Practice of Apothecaries throughout England and Wales", introduced compulsory apprenticeship and formal qualification; and gave the Society of Apothecaries the right to examine and license apothecaries. Subsequently the licentiateship (LSA, changed to LMSSA in 1907) became the commonest qualification among general practitioners, although by 1840 it has been estimated that only about a third of those practising medicine were qualified by examination.
28 August 1888 George Owen Browne Clerk in Holy Orders s/o Thos Birch Llewelyn Browne , Rector & Canon of Bodfari married Minnie Charlotte Joan Gibbons d/o George Gibbons Medical Practicioner abode Poplar House Adwy. Witt Thos J Evans vicar of Hargrave Chester. Catherine Emma Gibbons and Ellen Maud Gibbons.
Also this one. 11 August 1885 James Price married Sarah CARRINGTON , s/o John CARRINGTON Hotel Proprieter Coedpoeth. Witt Catherine Emma Gibbons and MCJ Gibbons.
Those CARRINGTONS just keep poppping up everywhere ;D ;D ;D
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Post by eluned on Sept 11, 2008 12:05:23 GMT
1881 census Plas Maelor Charles J Gibbons Head Married 44 accountant clerk in limeworks B.Warwickshire, Windsworth (this is also transcribed as Windsworth and I would tend to agree) Mary E " Wife M 33 B.Warwickshire, Birmingham William F. " Son 12 B.Bersham Charles G." " 6 B." Ellen M.M. " daur 4 B." Archibald A. H. " Son 2 B." Wilfred L. " Son 4months B." Albert W. Ashford bro in law, just left school 17 B.Warwickshire, Birmingham Mary Price serv 18 gen servant B.Newtown, Radnorshire
"= ditto
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Post by eluned on Sept 11, 2008 12:20:16 GMT
1871 census Plas Maelor Charles J Gibbons H M 34 Auctioner + accountant B.Kenilworth, Warwick Mary E. " W 23 B.Birmingham, Warwick William F. " son 2 B.Adwy Charles L. " son 6mths B." Susanah Davies serv W 49 domestic B.Llandegla, Denbighshire It looks as though there were 2 Charles'. Charles George b. sep 1/4 1875 Charles James b. dec 1/4 1870 They lived next door to Charles Littler who someone was querying about recently and whos address in 1891 was Gibbon's Cottages!
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Post by claudiaa on Sept 11, 2008 14:25:43 GMT
Dear All Thank you for all your hard work, it is much appreciated and absolutely facinating to watch people 'come to life' so to speak. I have been through some photos and paperwork I have that belonged to my Aunt and think I have found an old sepia photograph of what appears to be titled "Plas Maelor" - a large detatched house - I will see if I can get this scanned in and verified. Yes my Grandmother would have been somewhat young to be 'finished' at 7 - Oops. I have her married to Patrick Joseph O'Malley (Stevedore - resident of Glasgow) on 17 June 1912 at SS Peter & Pauls RC Church in New Brighton. At that time the family were living at Wellington Rd. She was given away by her Uncle Mr A W Wright-Ashford. Her father was then referred to as Captain Gibbons - not sure where that comes from. I will now have to see who and what of these photographs my mother can identify. Thanks again.
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Post by annedw on Sept 11, 2008 15:07:57 GMT
The term Captain is thought to come from Cornwall where the manager of the tin mines were called Captains. A Captain John Francis came from Corwall to work the leadmines and the term stuck. So, he was the Boss ;D I found this bit on the web.
Specialty Definition: MINE CAPTAIN
Mining A. A superintendent of a mine b. The director of work in a mine, with or without superior officials or subordinates c. In metal mining, a foreman who supervises the extraction, hauling, and hoisting of ore in a mine.
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Post by eluned on Sept 11, 2008 15:21:53 GMT
Looking at various census info, I began to think that Charles and George may be twins. So I checked the IGI, Charles James and George were both bap. 30 Aug 1836 Kenilworth to William Frederick and Charlotte Gibbons I know this isn't conclusive but... possible. William Frederick Gibbons Married Charlotte Tibbits 11 Aug 1830 St. Mary, Warwick. All info found is best verified by looking at the original registers. What a lovely name Tibbits. Brill The things that make us smile!
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Post by eluned on Sept 11, 2008 15:31:58 GMT
1871 Bersham Gibbons Row, Adwy House and shop George Gibbons H M 34 Assistant to surgeon + chemist B.Kenilworth Mary Ann " W 36 b.Birmingham Catherine A " daur 7 scholar B.Adwy Minnie S " daur 5 " B." Elizabeth Owens serv, unm, 21, dom serv B."
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Post by eluned on Sept 11, 2008 15:51:14 GMT
1851 WarwickThe Butts (Yes, seriously) William (F) Gibbons H M 42 Int(ue--) ? of money B.Whitchurch, Salop Charlotte " W M 46 B.Warwick William " son (17) out of employ B.(Kenilworth?) George " " (14) scholar B." Charles James " 16 scholar B." Ellen Butcher serv Un 18 (---il) serv, B.(Sou)thampton, B---? Quite difficult to read parts of this one, can anyone else read it please?
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Post by eluned on Sept 11, 2008 15:55:47 GMT
1841 KenilworthNew Street William Gibbons 32 independant means, not born in county Charlotte " 35, yes " Joan " 9 yes " William " yes " George " 5 yes " Charles 5 yes " Mary Hughes 16 Fem serv, yes " Twins then?
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Post by eluned on Sept 11, 2008 19:32:42 GMT
1881 Poplar House, AdwyGeorge Gibbons H M 43 dentist + asst surgeon, B.Kenilworth Mary A. " W M 46 B.Birmingham Catherine E. " daur unm 17 pupil teacher, B.Bersham Sarah Parsonage boarder unm 26 teacher certificated B.Wrexham Elizabeth Owens serv 30 domestic serv, B.Bersham 1891 ditto George Gibbons H M 56 dentist + chemist B.Kenilworth, eng speaking Mary A. " W M 58 B.Birmingham, eng speaking Catherine E. " daur S 26 B.Adwy, both (welsh & eng) Susan Child boarder Wid 46 living on own means, Dumfries, Scotland, eng. speaking Elizabeth Owens serv S 37 gen serv, B.Adwy, both 1901 dittoGeorge Gibbons H M 63 drug chemist/dentist B.Kenilworth Mary A" W M 65 B.Birmingham Catherine E." daur S 32 B.Adwy Maria Edwards serv S 26 dom serv, B.Whitehaven, Cumberland I'm not keen on attending the dentist now but then, makes you shudder thinking about it.
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Post by claudiaa on Sept 11, 2008 19:33:52 GMT
Hi All
Again, what a fantastic response, I have loads to delve into further and will report back on the photographs as soon as I get them verified/identified.
A few more questions (I'm sorry, but am new to this). One of Eluned's posts refers to: Charles G." " 6 B." What does the B signify exactly? Do we actually have 3 Charles' ? Charles L. " son 6mths B." as found be Eluned in the 1871 census?
Now you have furnished me with a superb amount of facinating information, and a sound basis of further research, what is the best methods do you think of recording this, again your help would be appreciated.
Many Thanks Claudia
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Post by eluned on Sept 11, 2008 19:48:35 GMT
Sorry me abbreviating again. " means ditto to save me typing more than necasary but not alot of use if you can't understand it. Sorry. Charles G." " 6 B." What does the B signify exactly?In a census return details of name, relation to head, condition ie married or single, age, job and where born are listed. So Charles G. Gibbons, son, B short for where born, and ditto for the same place as listed above. I am fairly sure there are only 2 Charles' as shown in the birth index. I should have actually put a bracket around L to show that I wasn't positve what the letter was even though it looked like an L! It is more likely to have been a J as Charles James was born within the 3 month period of OCT-DEC of 1870. The 1871 census would have been taken in the spring of that year and 6 months roughly after he was born. Hope that clears things up If you don't understand please let me know as I am here, hopefully to help
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Post by Hen Locsin on Sept 11, 2008 19:54:27 GMT
Claudia, There are some excellent software discs available, some slightly better in terms of ease of use and recordong information, I use " Family Tree Maker" but we have so many experts in this field that may use some other programme. Hen Locsin
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Post by annedw on Sept 11, 2008 20:44:24 GMT
1851 WarwickThe Butts (Yes, seriously) William (F) Gibbons H M 42 Int(ue--) ? of money B.Whitchurch, Salop Charlotte " W M 46 B.Warwick William " son (17) out of employ B.(Kenilworth?) George " " (14) scholar B." Charles James " 16 scholar B." Ellen Butcher serv Un 18 (---il) serv, B.(Sou)thampton, B---? Quite difficult to read parts of this one, can anyone else read it please? Could it be Interest of money. for William, and general (abreviation )servant for Ellen. Northampton, compare the N and the S on Schoolmistress and Scholar, but she`s not important to us is she Claudiaa, I would bet that there will be obituaries in the Wrexham papers for this family, they were obviously quite well to do , and I would expect announcments to be made. They could even show up in the Times, I`ll check some time tomorrow,
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Post by eluned on Sept 11, 2008 21:14:13 GMT
Thanks Annette, I found that really difficult to read. Under personnal names at Denbighshire Record Office is Charles James Gibbons 1892 ref. DD/HB/856. I wonder what this is? Claudiaa, Before delving any further you will need to send for various birth, marriage and death certificates to ensure that you are heading in the right direction. These certificates and checking items in church registers will then help you to build an acurate family tree.
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Post by claudiaa on Sept 11, 2008 22:59:07 GMT
Dear All Really do appreciate all this assistance. I will send off for various certificates next week (down to your hard work I do have a starting point) - I presume starting with Charles James' marrriage cert, birth and death certs; then look to George and then William - plus their various spouses? Would you agree this is best methodology? Errr - where do I make the request to? Sorry did warn you I was new to this! I will not be back on this message board till Monday as am helping run a Charity event this weekend so life is a little chaotic .... Many Thanks Claudia A
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