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Post by eluned on Jan 28, 2010 14:39:26 GMT
Hi Droy, Here's the link to the original thread. minerahistory.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=location&action=display&thread=872&page=1I'm sure you have the info below but it will help others to search/help. Hopefully working backwards one step at a time will ensure you are heading up the right tree ;D 1901 Sth Manchester124 South St, Ardwick RG13/3680/107/14 William Hughes 52 blacksmith/forgeman b.N. Wales, DENElizabeth " 46 b." Martha " 22 b." Harriett " 21 b." William " 19 Thomas " 17 Richard " 13 Lettie " 10 Ernest " 8 E----s " 4 All other children born Lancs.
1891 Openshaw, LancsRG12/3178/110/31 William Hughes 42 hammer smith b.Brymbo, WalesElizabeth " 37 b.Brymbo Martha " 13 b." Harriet " 12 b." William " 9 Thomas " 7 John " 4 Richard " 2 Letitia " 6mths All other children born Lancs.
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Post by eluned on Jan 28, 2010 14:53:18 GMT
Hi. Thank's for your postings. I'm afraid you're correct I don't feel !00% sure whether or not I'm on the correct 'tree'.Regarding the four children I have no prove they were from a earlier marriage,it just seems possible, being a widow she or he brought the children into this marriage.Again I have nothing definite confirming her name as Roberts .Although their birth dates appear to to fit in on their marriage in 1848. So far I have been unable to obtain My Grandfather William's birth certificate is proving rather hard to obtain.Having already sent for two certificates which seems hopelessly 'wrong'. I'm now awaiting a third.So nothing definite their either.The only thing I know for certain is that William my grandfather was a blacksmith/hammerman born in Bersham In 1876 he married Elizabeth Evans, they had two children,Martha & Harriet, before moving to England. All rather flimsy I'm afraid. Many thanks for your help. Droy. Do you have Grandad William Hughes marriage cert please? Is it this one and did you confirm her maiden name from one of their childrens cert or other document? Sep 1/4 1876 Wrexham Civil to Elizabeth Evans Could you post the details ie.fathers name and occupation, witnesses etc. The 1891 census has William down as being born Brymbo not Bersham. Have you also got the 1881 census details? I can't find them eluned
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Post by droy on Jan 28, 2010 22:18:41 GMT
Hi, Yes, you're correct I do have the earliey info. However I've drawn a complete blank on the whereabouts of William & family on the 1881 census. It was about the between the birth's of the 2nd & 3rd children 1879-1882, that they made their move to England.As for William's birthplace, it seems to vary sometimes given as Bersham at other times given as Brymbo. I think perhaps Brymbo is the more likely. I do however have info the regarding the death at Pentre Vron in 1878 of a Harriet Hughes(22/10/1878) If this turns out to be my gt grandmother its a pretty good reason for missing the 1881 census!! In the 1891 census I have found a John Hughes aged 77 yrs living in theCivil parish of Broughton,Eccleseastical parish of Brymbo , he is listed as father-in-law, the head of the family is a Thomas Hughes whose age fits in with with one of William's siblings. Possibly my gt uncle?? Looks like I'm going off the main thread here !. The real info you enquired about is as follows:William Hughes married Elizabeth 9th Sept. 1876,at the register office Wrexham in the Counties of Flint,Denbigh& Chester. William is listed as a batchelor,born in Brymbo,a blacksmith by profession. His father John Hughes's job is given as a Iron Moulder. In the presence of Edw. Morgan & Francis J. Bury. Droy
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Post by eluned on Jan 29, 2010 10:41:45 GMT
Hi Droy, OK so it seems that you are on the correct line with the family you found in the earlier census and listed below by annedw 1861 RG9; Piece: 4285; Folio: 13; Page: 20 Adwy John Hughes 45 iron moulder b Minera Hariat Hughes 44 b Shropshire Richard Hughes 17 iron moulder b Denbyshire William Hughes 12 b " Thomas Hughes 8 b " 1871 RG10; Piece: 5654; Folio: 93; Page: 46; Pentre Vron, Brymbo John Hughes 56 labourer b Minera Harriet Hughes 56 b Sellatin William Hughes 22 blacksmith b Bersham Thomas Hughes 19 engine fitter b Bersham HO107/2503/691/26 1851 Hughes Building, Adwy ClawddJohn Hughes 37 labourer Harriot 35 Robert 14 Lewsey 12 John 10 Richard 8 William 2All born Wrexham Moving back to William's birth and baptism next. You said "So far I have been unable to obtain My Grandfather William's birth certificate is proving rather hard to obtain.Having already sent for two certificates which seems hopelessly 'wrong'. I'm now awaiting a third.So nothing definite their either."It may be the case that William's birth was never registered as there was no penalty for not doing so until 1874. Have you specified William son of John when requesting his birth cert? Why do you think the others were wrong, wrong father, place of birth? If you contact the local register office, in this case Wrexham, they will do a search for a William with father John. You could also mention they were living in the Bersham/Brymbo area. They are very helpful and will go beyond the call of duty. www.wrexham.gov.uk/english/life_events/bereavement/register_office.htm#copiesIf William's birth went unregistered, have you tried looking for Thomas? Don't forget though that the baptism found gives a birth date and mothers maiden name William son of John Hughes labourer and Harriet previously Roberts. Abobe Bersham. Born 2 March 1849, bapt 16 May 1849.
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Post by annedw on Jan 29, 2010 15:38:44 GMT
Are we are thinking the Gresford marrige is not correct. Are the ages of the couple a match, are parents named, what are the abode and occupations, any details will help. In 1851 the eldest son is Robert, aged 14, bc 1837. If we can find his baptism , and that of the other children then that would show who the mother was. I can`t find a Lewsey or anything similar at all. Before 1837 a marriage outside the Church of England was not legal in the eyes of Canon Law, so the parents hopefully got married in St Giles. As for Harriet being born in Sellatyn, she could be from a local family , I have a family that are from Broughton, also Hughes and they went to Selattyn coal mines to work , then returned to Brymbo.
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Post by eluned on Jan 29, 2010 17:44:30 GMT
Some marriage info. Moving it from the other thread so that its a bit easier to follow Droy didn't seem sure that the marriage was correct, but it may be the one after all, so just clarifying all the info obtained so far. Thank's again for your postings. The info regarding Hughes buildings being situated next to Taylers,the stonemasons fits in nicely, as my gt grandmother Harriet ( nee Roberts) father was a stonemason. Today I received my gt grandparents marriage certificate from the Wrexham records office.They had been married at the Wern Independent Chapel in 1848. My grandfather William had been born the followin year. For a while I had been puzzled about the four earlier children listed in the 1851 census. Anyhow the marriage certificate provided the answer (I hope) Both my gt grandparents were listed as Widow & Widower. So obviously the children were from their previous marriages. That's my next job, who were their spouses?. Once again many thanks for your help. I hope to visit your area in the near future. Droy. Hi, Afraid I gave incorrect info on my last posting, I'll put it down to a "senior moment". In fact I'm fairly sure my gt grandparent's were married at Gresford church. And yes it was my grandfather William baptised at Wern Independent. The problem I have been having with my gt grandmother's birth date(around 1817) is that on later census she is listed as being born in Settlyn,Salop, presumably this is meant to be Selattyn. However I have checked with Shropshire and they can find no trace of any Harriet Roberts. I have found a Harriet Roberts in the Gresford baptisms which appears to be the correct person. So I have concluded she was probably born in Selattyn but for whatever reason baptised Gresford. The " extra" children that appears in the 1851 census possibly came from a earlier marriage as she is listed as a Widow. I'm still trying to figure out why she was useing her maiden name Robert's when marrying my gt grandfather, unless of course her first spouse was also named Roberts! Anyway 'back to the records'!! Droy NW BMD 1848 marriages. Free BMD has Oct / Dec qtr HUGHES John, Gresford, All Saints ROBERTS Harriet
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Post by droy on Jan 29, 2010 21:31:08 GMT
Today I contacted the Wrexham register office ( by phone). I have hopefully ordered the correct birth certificate for my grandfather William. Droy.
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Post by eluned on Jan 29, 2010 22:26:07 GMT
Hi Droy, Fingers crossed eluned
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Post by eluned on Jan 31, 2010 14:37:52 GMT
Hi Droy, You mentioned this death "I do however have info the regarding the death at Pentre Vron in 1878 of a Harriet Hughes(22/10/1878)" She is listed as being 62yrs. Does the certificate say wife/widow of....? Who registered the death? Perhaps a burial will give some more clues.
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Post by eluned on Jan 31, 2010 16:32:33 GMT
1861 Vron Farm, Brymbo RG9/4277/70/57 Thomas Lewis H mar 27 farmer 80acres, employing 1 man and 1 boy b.Brymbo Ann " wife 23 b.Brymbo Robert Hughes 23 boarder iron moulder b.Brymbo
Is this William's brother Robert?
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Post by annedw on Feb 4, 2010 14:21:08 GMT
Hoepfully Droy will have the birth certificate details soon, This is the marriage he refers to, Gresford St Mary`s. 22 Oct 1848. John Hughes widower of full age, occ Plasterer , abode Gwersyllt Father William Hughes labourer Harriet Roberts widow of full age, abode Gwersyllt. Father Thomas Roberts stonemason. Witnesses Thomas Williams and Eliza Jenkins, all made their mark.
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Post by droy on Feb 4, 2010 14:56:17 GMT
Hi Received my grandfather William's birth certificate today, It reads: Born 9th March 1849,father John Hughes,mother Harriet Hughes ( formerly Roberts) fathers occupation Iron moulder,Registrar on the12th April 1849. Both parents address is given as Adwyr Clawdd. As you can see there is a difference with the birth date. The Wern Chapel's entry is given as 2nd March 1849. While John's occupation is given as labourer.Possibly the Chapel's entry could have been hard to decypher with regard to the birth date. And perhaps Iron moulders were another form of labouring. Incidentally I believe gt grandfather John's father William married a lady named Jane ROBERTS. Complicated isn't it!!!. Thanks Droy
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Post by eluned on Feb 4, 2010 15:41:53 GMT
Hi Droy, I have found that chapel dobs often differ from dob from certs so I don't think that is a concern and it is exactly a week out so perhaps the parents miscounted ;D John Hughes is a iron moulder in 1861 and they lived Adwy in 1851. So you now have the correct birth certificate. The Gresford marriage looks all wrong to me though Thanks for looking up the details Annedw I would suggest searching for a pre 1837 marriage in Wrexham, so start with the Wrexham PRs and possibly search for the baptisms of their other children. Eluned
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Post by annedw on Feb 4, 2010 16:04:31 GMT
Baptism entry from Wern Chapel Attachments:
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Post by annedw on Feb 5, 2010 15:09:13 GMT
Just a bit of meaningless rambling. I`ve been thinking about the Gresford marriage. If there are two John and Harriets, why can we only find one in 1851/61 Even searching for just names gives the one result. It`s the change of occupation that`s the problem. I`ve spotted one thing. John was a plasterer, Harriets dad was a stone mason. The only Eliza Jenkins in the area in 1851 was aged 23, she was a servant for James Reynold Gummow, we know all about his family. minerahistory.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=neighbour&thread=796&page=1There`s a connection with the building trade here. It`s doubtful that he would change his trade. End of rambling ;D ;D ;D
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Post by eluned on Feb 5, 2010 15:41:08 GMT
Rambling is good I just feel that with both the place and job being incorrect, that it doesn't seem quite right but I can see where you are coming from Annedw. There are some deaths of Harriet Hughes' registered in Wrexham Jun 1/4 1849 Dec 1/4 1853 Sep 1/4 1859 eluned
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Post by jojo on Feb 5, 2010 16:54:37 GMT
As Harriet was from Selattyn perhaps they married in Shropshire?
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Post by eluned on Feb 5, 2010 16:59:25 GMT
Thanks Jojo that had crossed my mind too
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Post by droy on Feb 5, 2010 22:36:39 GMT
Hi,Hope you haven't received this posting in triplicate,On two previous attempts I have 'lost' the message. In the past I have contacted the Shropshire records office regarding Harriet's birth certificate,however they came up with three Harriets born in 1816, none of which appears to be revelant. Their surnames were Minshull,Povey,and Hall. I have also been in touch with St Mary's church in Selattyn, again with no luck. As yet I have not checked any marriage records in Selattyn. Droy
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Post by eluned on Feb 6, 2010 8:53:36 GMT
Hi Droy, As Harriet was from Selattyn perhaps they married in Shropshire? Jojo suggests looking for a marriage in Selattyn not a baptism. Its best to go back one step at a time...so as not to climb the wrong tree. As regard Harriet's place of birth, it's possible that she grew up in Selattyn and thought she was born there
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Post by droy on Feb 6, 2010 20:54:31 GMT
Hi, Heard back from Shropshire records by e-mail today regarding the possibly marriage of Harriet in Selattyn. Apparently there is no trace of the marriage pre 1837, and after that year records for Selattyn are no longer kept at the records office.The office suggested I try the church again, which I will do. One interesting piece of info, they did find a birth record of a Harriet born to William & Anne Roberts 24th March 1822.They added it was'nt uncommon for children to be registered up to five years after their birth. Perhaps I'm clutching at straws! Droy
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Post by eluned on Feb 6, 2010 21:05:57 GMT
Hi Droy, The baptism is certainly a possibility. The oldest child I have being baptised is 16 years I still think its worth checking Wrexham PRs for a marriage though. eluned
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Post by droy on Feb 11, 2010 19:09:07 GMT
Hi. Thanks for your help.,I will be offline for approx. three weeks. Droy
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Post by droy on Dec 20, 2010 22:46:03 GMT
Prior to the opening of the Wern Independent Chapel in the early 1800's where would the n0n- conformist members have previously worshiped? Thank's Droy
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Post by eluned on Dec 21, 2010 12:45:56 GMT
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Post by droy on Dec 21, 2010 21:57:14 GMT
Hi Eluned. Thank's for your help. Sorry about the delay(understatement). No,so far I haven't been in touch with Wrexham PR. I'm afraid I became distracted by the ancestry on my maternal side which I found much easier to follow. Anyway I'm now ready to restart the search for my Welsh family with a trip to Wrexham in the New Year. Once again thank's for your help. Droy.
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