|
Post by richk on Jul 1, 2012 16:55:36 GMT
Hi
I want to track the parish record of the following marriage:
John ("de Hildgrave") Turner, born abt 1805, Mold, Flintshire, Wales - book keeper, keeper of accounts, etc
and
Lavinia Rebekah Coley, born abt 1815, Hope, Flintshire, Wales
Likely married in St Giles, Wrexham, or close by. A lot of their later children seem to have been married there, hence the guess.
Also hunting census records for Wales other than 1851 (with whole family) and 1881 (with only widowed Lavinia). Having no luck so far. Could be a name error in the census returns - had it before.
Children of the marriage are:
Alfred Fitz Coley de Walker Turner 1836 – 1900 - married Hannah Edwards Bernard De Belton Turner 1838 – 1887 - married Fanny Horton Cornelius Turner 1838 – 1877 - believe married Jane Price Turnerica Henrica Ulrica Da Gloria De Lavinia Rebe Turner 1840 - death & marriage unknown John De Hillgreave Turner 1841 – 1887 (my 3rd great grandfather) - (married Sarah Rogers, was an engine driver in the coal mines) Dreasdush Turner 1843 – death unknown - marriage unknown Eighnard De George Jones Turner 1844 – 1930 (married Mary Hughes, known simply as George) Tionghal Turner 1846 – death unknown - marriage unknown Turnwell de Pringle William ap Owens Turner 1847 – 1911 (married Mariana Diprose, died in Northland, New Zealand)
Interested in anything to do with this family, so any comments from knowledgeable Wrexham folk or other most appreciated.
Best regards Rich
|
|
|
Post by eluned on Jul 1, 2012 19:40:56 GMT
|
|
|
Post by eluned on Jul 1, 2012 19:47:56 GMT
COLLEY MOLD PRs John Turner ba otp married Lavinia Rebecca Caley sp otp. Wittnesses were Edward Thomas Tartt and Ann Langford. No date is mentioned Edward Thomas Tartt was a druggist, there`s a later baptism of Robert s/o Edward Thomas and Anne Tartt, druggist of Mold. 1838 July 28 Baptism of Alfred Fitz Coley de Walker Turner. born 1835 Dec 24. s/o John and Lavinia Rebecca. Brymbo. Agent. 1838 July 29 Baptism of Bernard de Belton Turner. born Feb 12 1838. 1838 July 29 Baptism of Cornelius de Coniston Turner born Feb 12 1838 1840 June 7 baptism of Turnerica Henrica Ulrica da Gloria de Lavinia Rebecca Turner. d/o John Turner, Plasmain , agent. 1841 Oct 5 baptism of Hillgrave de John Turner s/o John and Rebecca Lavinia. Plasmain, parish of Hope. Mine agent. John Turner marr Lavinia Rebecca Caley 13 April 1833
|
|
|
Post by richk on Jul 2, 2012 21:40:09 GMT
Thanks Eluned, that's a great help. I take it since the marriage occurred in 1833, chances of a marriage certificate are now not possible (four years before official records start in Sept 1837).
What options do I have in researching the parents of both John Turner and Lavinia Rebecca Caley? I note the parish record of the marriage records John as "John Jnr" so we have another John Turner snr I would presume. If anyone is able to identify this family in any census other than 1851 or 1881 (Wales), that would be a great help. I have had no luck to date.
John Turner is recorded as a mine agent. Does anyone know what the responsibilities of a mine agent were in a coal mine? I have a basic idea from what I have read elsewhere in relation to tin mines in Cornwall, but if someone has a more in-depth knowledge I would love hear from them. John is also recorded as a "book keeper" on his son's (another John “de Hilgrave” Turner) marriage certificate, again I would guess in relation to coal mines and his duties as a “mine agent”. He is also noted in the 1851 census as a "keeper of records". Similar trend here. I know the family were associated with coal mines in the area (in Minera) as the son was an engine driver in a coal mine. Were there any major coal mines of note in this area, and what type of engine would be driven in a coal mine? Assuming some sort of train/cart carriage type arrangement for the transport of coal out of the mine.
My understanding is that mine agents were “middle men” between the labourers and management of the mines, so they were held in some importance, but took the full responsibility of the mine production in many cases (and the blame if need be).
Thanks and Best Regards
Rich
|
|
|
Post by celticar on Jul 2, 2012 21:45:43 GMT
John Turner born 12 sept 1804. Baptism 17 Feb 1805. Parents ....Father George Turner. Mother Mary Owens. Greenfield.
John's marriage was in bistre by the way. I notice on 1851 census he's a Teacher of Accounts
|
|
|
Post by celticar on Jul 2, 2012 22:08:14 GMT
Lavinia R Turner turns up in 1871 census as a widow. Springfield Terrace, Wrexham Regis, Wrexham. Son... Turnwell De P Turner living with her.
Lavinia was buried in Place/parish Minera, 21 April 1883. Aged 70
|
|
|
Post by celticar on Jul 2, 2012 22:30:10 GMT
Well as son Bernard was married in Brymbo in 1866. May be a case of the family still being in Brymbo and Pentre Broughton area for 1861 census. But I cant find them. Records missing may be ?? John Turner buried Minera 15 Nov 1867. Living in Coed Poeth aged 63
|
|
|
Post by richk on Jul 3, 2012 6:03:20 GMT
Thanks Celticar, I'll go and see if I can pull up a copy of the 1871 record on ancestry. Looks like the family moved to wrexham, as I have found a record of the son Bernard living with a wife Fanny, and two children Horatio & Margaret (shorten version of Turnerica de Margaret) living in the same town.
Any joy with 1841 - this was one I was particularly interested in, since it would have occurred in their prime young family years?
Cheers
Rich
|
|
|
Post by richk on Jul 3, 2012 6:06:46 GMT
Does anyone live local to Minera - I would be interested to find a picture of the burial place of John & Rebekah if there is any evidence of one.
Celticar has found for me: John Turner buried Minera 15 Nov 1867. Living in Coed Poeth aged 63 Lavinia was buried in Minera, 21 April 1883. Aged 70
Thanks Rich
|
|
|
Post by tominera on Jul 3, 2012 8:49:01 GMT
This pic is from Lee Wettons list of Minera H/S-Tom Attachments:
|
|
|
Post by eluned on Jul 3, 2012 9:54:03 GMT
Hi Rich I posted the date of the marriage, under the info found by Annedws, in reply 3. The link in reply 2 gives a lot of previous research on this family inc census and bmds.
|
|
|
Post by richk on Jul 3, 2012 11:15:40 GMT
Thanks Tom, just googled that website www.clwyd-mi.co.uk/ - never seen it before. Looks like an excellent resource, with a lot of time and effort put in. Are you able to make out the inscription on that headstone - its pretty weatherworn. Eluned, thanks, reading through that link now. There is a lot to digest!
|
|
|
Post by richk on Jul 3, 2012 11:55:29 GMT
Have found Lavania & Turnwell in the 1871 thanks Celticar. For some reason on ancestry.com the last name was translated as "Furner" instead of Turner. Now on the hunt for 1841.
Cheers Rich
|
|
|
Post by eluned on Jul 4, 2012 7:36:43 GMT
Hiya The grave inscription is quite eroded but the actual stone may show more that the photo does. Unfortunately I don't live local to the area to check it for you but perhaps someone else will volunteer to check it out for you. Another useful site for MIs in the area is this one: www.tom-mercer-mi-indexes.org.uk/index.htmSorry to tell you but the 1841 census for the Wrexham area is missing apart from Wrexham town its self which is not included online but is available in book form from Clwyd FHS. www.clwydfhs.org.uk/Happy hunting
|
|
|
Post by celticar on Jul 4, 2012 22:30:59 GMT
the place reads Gwernaffield not Greenfield from other entries. Sorry about that. Found other Siblings for John with extra info.
Elizabeth B 13 Oct 1797. Baptized 20 Jan 1798. Mother Mary, daughter of William Owens, Farmer of Rhos Berse, Wrexham. William B 1799. Father George. Farmer. Margaret B 1802 Mary B 1801
May be this is why John ended up in Minera area
|
|
|
Post by celticar on Jul 4, 2012 22:38:16 GMT
George Turner married Mary Owens in Parish of Chirk. Both of this Parish. 13 June 1797. Both signed their names. Witnesses Margaret Turner John Turner
|
|
|
Post by richk on Jul 5, 2012 17:54:46 GMT
Just happened to google one of the really long strange family names today (Turnerica), and I found the following research on the very same family below at the following link (which I was quite excited to find: www.britishbabynames.typepad.com/blog/page/13/"A little bit more digging shows the family appearing in Lighter Moments from the Notebook of Bishop Walsham How (1900) by Frederick Douglas How: Talking of family Bibles, when Bishop Walsham How was Rector of Whittington he copied the following list from the entries in the family Bible of some people called Turner. The names are those of the twelve children of the family:
1. Turnerina de Margaret. 2. Turnerannah de Mary Elizabeth. 3. Alfred Fitz Cawley de Walker. 4. Bernard de Belton. 5. Cornelius la Compston. 6. Turnerica Henrica Ulrica da Gloria de Lavinia Rebekah. 7. John de Hillgreave. 8. Eignah de George Turner Jones. 9. Fighonghangal o Temardugh Hope de Hindley. 10. Turnwell William ap Owen de Pringle. 11. Turnerietta de Johannah Jane de Faith. 12. Faithful Thomas
So, from reading between the transcription errors and spelling mistakes, it would appear that John and Lavinia Rebecca had Turnerina, Turneranna, Alfred, Bernard, Cornelius, Turnerica, John, Eignhard, Fionghal, Turnwell, Turnerietta and Faithful."
|
|
|
Post by richk on Jul 5, 2012 18:02:14 GMT
Thanks Eluned, I'll take a look at the link you've given me. If anyone is local to the area and feels like a wander to this headstone, I would appreciate the help. Likewise on the 1841 Wrexham census, if anyone could check out the hard copy for to try and identify this family, that would be great.
Celticar, I'm not so sure about George Turner, being the father of John. I was told that on John's marriage certificate to Lavinia he records his mark as John Turner Jnr. Would that not suggest another John Snr. Unless the marriage parish record was mis-read.
Cheers Rich
|
|
|
Post by celticar on Jul 5, 2012 18:59:35 GMT
Hi Rich As they were married in 1833 there is no marriage certificate. They were married by Banns so NO father's listed.
The word after Turner is not clear enough to say 100% that it says Jnr. In fact the style of the writing looks different to the signed name John Turner.
|
|
|
Post by richk on Jul 5, 2012 19:47:02 GMT
Hi Celticar, thanks for that. Guess that puts somewhat of a dampener on that argument.
Just had to familiarise myself with what Banns actually means. My understanding now is that it is a public announcement in a Christian church of the marriage to allow any impediments (legal or otherwise) to the union to be announced beforehand.
Am I right in guessing this is the initial paperwork, and then there would be a quiet marriage after the Banns have been completed. What does a Bann record look like - is it just the names of the intended couple?
Cheers Rich
|
|
|
Post by richk on Jul 5, 2012 20:09:12 GMT
Elunud, Brymbo seems to be one of those places missing 1841 census records, where the Turners originally lived in the 1851 census. So the 1841 census for Wrexham in book format probably won't help me. But probably worth a look. Will order a copy.
1861 census seem to have been impacted somewhat by missing records also, but not to the same extent. Some bits of the family (Turnwell and the mother Lavinia) seem to be in Wrexham Regis by the 1871 census, so possible they are there also in 1861 (or if not in Brymbo). Will focus on this one for now.
Cheers Rich
|
|
|
Post by richk on Jul 5, 2012 20:35:57 GMT
Celticar, found the following death announcement in the paper that provides a full detail of John Turner's death:
Births, Deaths, Marriages and Obituaries . The Wrexham Advertiser, Denbighshire, Flintshire, Shropshire, Cheshire & North Wales Register (Wrexham, Wales), Saturday, November 23, 1867; pg. 4; Issue 762.
Deaths - Turner - on the 11th inst., at Coedpoeth, Mr John Turner, school master, aged 63
|
|
|
Post by richk on Jul 5, 2012 20:58:46 GMT
Just found something that I think relates to John and Rebecca in the Wrexham Advertiser. It appears John was a little violent, if its the right John and Rebecca. The incident occurred very close to Mold, where John was born.
Wrexham and Denbighshire Weekly Advertiser and Cheshire, Shropshire, Flintshire, and North Wales Register (Wrexham, Wales), Saturday, March 21, 1857; Issue 164.
"Misdemeanor - John Turner was charged for unlawfully stabbing his wife Rebecca Turner, his wife, at Tryddyn, on the 14th of February last. The wound was two inches long and half an inch deep. Mr W. L. Foulkes, and Mr H. Lloyd prosecuted; the prisoner was defended by Mr V Williams. The jury found the prisoner guilty. Sentence - Three months imprisonment, with hard labour."
|
|
|
Post by annedw on Jul 5, 2012 21:00:14 GMT
A marriage entry for 1833 would look like this , you may be able to view and print it if you find it on FMPast. Attachments:
|
|
|
Post by annedw on Jul 5, 2012 21:40:14 GMT
Turners in Minera burials.
1867 Nov 15 TURNER John, Coedpoeth 63 1870 Jul 3 TURNER George, Llofft Wen Cottage 6 dys old 1870 Feb 22 TURNER Mary Hannah, Terrace 4 dys 1883 Apr 21 TURNER Lavinia Rebecca, Flint 70
|
|
|
Post by celticar on Jul 5, 2012 21:49:19 GMT
I've managed to find the Baptism records for the following children, which gives the following extra info. Which may help narrow your search a little.
Alfred Fitz Caully De Walker Turner 1836, Ponkey, Ruabon. Father an Agent.
Turnwell de Pringle William Owens Turner 1848, Glascoed, Brymbo. Father a Cashier Turnerietta de Johanna Jane de Faith Turner 1849, Glascoed, Brymbo. Father an Accountant
|
|
|
Post by annedw on Jul 5, 2012 22:16:18 GMT
No mention of Turners in the wills, but this lot certainly had `money` , presumably if they were friends of John and Lavinia, they also came from better off familes. Tartt, Edward Thomas, Mold, Flint, Druggist Edward Thomas Tartt : bond, 1844 hdl.handle.net/10107/216939Tartt, Merab?, Mold, Flint, Widow Merab? Tartt : will, 1847. hdl.handle.net/10107/263054Tartt, Robert, Holywell, Flint, Gent Robert Tartt : will, 1841 hdl.handle.net/10107/865472Possibly Anne Langford, witness. Langford, Anne, Mold, Flint, Spinster Anne Langford : will, 1847 hdl.handle.net/10107/786080
|
|
|
Post by richk on Jul 6, 2012 6:05:49 GMT
Fighonghangal o Temardugh Hope de Hindley Turner
Known simply as Hope de Hindley Turner or Hope Turner in the 1871 (Wales) and 1881 (census).
Left his wife Mary (nee ?) £25 in probate records. Died in Birkenhead.
Listed as a civil engineer in 1881 working in Castleford, Wales. Residing with the Pollard and Taylor families.
In 1871 census, living in Flint, with the Ames family. Listed born 1846, Brmybo, Denbighshire. Wales (spot on). Listed simply as Hope Turner. Occupation listed as "with colliery engine" whatever that means.
Fighonghangal Turner = Tionghal Turner, as listed in the 1851 census. Likely a large spelling mistake, and who can blame them.
Cheers Rich
|
|
|
Post by richk on Jul 6, 2012 6:06:25 GMT
Castleford, Yorkshire, sorry )
|
|
|
Post by richk on Jul 6, 2012 11:15:10 GMT
Celticar, John Turner (husband of Lavinia Rebekah Turner) seems to have a variable career judging by all the occupations he has listed himself as:
Agent Cashier Accountant Mine Agent School Master Teacher of Accounts
Wonder how much of it is exaggeration, or if he had a flexible career. They are all very related fields.
Cheers Rich
|
|