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Post by heaffey on Oct 11, 2006 10:02:09 GMT
Hi All,
Tracey was interested to hear re the owens. Unfortunately at this stage I have no more information on the Owens family. If I ever manage to get up to Wales ( 2 kids and a dog!) I will will look into John Owens history further and I'll post my findings.
Dave, did your parents have a good time in Wales? My mum never got there due to a bad cold but will try again in November. Am hoping to go with her and visit the graves.
Have been thinking about Simon and Catherine again re their graves. We know that on Catherines death certificate that the personal attendant was Hannah who I believe to be the sister in law that took on the Gabriel at least when she died. Gabriels sister and brother Simon lived next door according to the census 1871. The certificate shows Plas Gwyn as the address and this agrees to the census also which is Bwlch Gwyn mountains- town Plas Gwyn. Is it therefore possible that if you resided in Bwlch Gwyn that you could be buried here and not Minera ?? I don't know the area very well but looking at a Google map and from memory Bwlch Gwyn is above Minera. Is there anyone out there that knows if there is a church nearer to Bwlch Gwyn than the churches we have already looked at in Minera ? A search on the web lists a Christ church - Bwlch Gwyn ( built 1867 which would fit in nicely) but again I am unsure if this is actually in the correct area. Any ideas anyone.
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Post by llosgi calch on Oct 11, 2006 19:05:59 GMT
Burial places of Bwlchgwyn Brymbo road, Bwlchgwyn - Christ Church has a cemetery. A little lower down the same road Salem Chapel (now demolished) has an old cemetery. On the Ruthin Road, Bwlchgwyn - Bethesda Chapel (demolished) has an old cemetery.
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Post by heaffey on Oct 12, 2006 12:46:30 GMT
Thank llogsi catch. Worth a visit next time I am in N.Wales. Regards Clare
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Post by cyngorra on Oct 15, 2006 13:00:16 GMT
Hi, all.
The references to the Bwlchgwyn burial grounds of Christ Church, Bethesda Chapel and Salem Chapel come at an appropriate time as I have just received copies of the Monumental Inscriptions for the three from Clwyd Family History Society (before I considered whether or not the burials covered would be of an appropriate age). There is no inscription noted which refers to Simon or Catherine Jones, though this does not exclude these places as areas of interest as, if early enough, the grave may be unmarked.
Claire - I wonder if Catherine was not the first family member to be buried. Looking at the children born to Simon and Catherine, it is the gaps between births which stand out. I have four children born to the couple; Jane in 1849/50, Simon in January 1852, Gabriel in August 1855 and Margaret in August 1860. Catherine died in 1867.
From other research into families during this period, it is probable that other children were born to Simon and Catherine between 1855 and 1860, or 1860 and 1867, or even 1852 and 1855. If so, it may well be that these other children died. Catherine, at the time of her death, may well have been buried in an already established grave, perhaps not necessarily one local to where she lived when she died.
As to my parents' visit to the area, they enjoyed it and plan to go back again, though perhaps not until next year. The people they met were helpful, including, of course, Annette - they are grateful to you for taking them around the Wern. After seeing the photos, I will have to re-define my idea of what constitutes an over-grown cemetery. It is beyond anything I might have imagined. The photos came out very well indeed and can be emailed to you if you wish.
Thank you for your search of the parish registers - as you say, there can be few parish churches appropriate for their burial unless they were non-conformist at that time.
My parents also wish to thank Peter Appleton, whom they met in Minera, who was gracious, knowledgable and helpful.
Back in Mountain Ash, the message from Rhiannon was a pleasant surprise. Thank you for posting as it is great to hear from someone whose family made the same journey. A day or two after reading it, my father met someone he knew and mentioned your message, only to to find he was talking to your father! A small town in a small world.
I often wonder about the journeys people made at that time - their reasons for leaving, what they left behind, what their expectations were, and so on. Building up a picture of the circumstances, narrowing down the priod of time in which the move occurred, is something I find interesting as it seems such a significant step in the life of a family. And it also explains why I am where I am, so - clumsily - to speak.
Dave
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Post by Rhiannon on Oct 16, 2006 12:04:06 GMT
Hello Dave,
Well what a small world, fancy that, the person your Dad spoke to was mine, I wonder if I know your father ? I spoke with my Dad last night but he didn't say anything, he must have forgotten, I'm popping home on Thursday so I will mention it to him.
I don't know about your ancestors but I know that mine spoke Welsh while they were still living in Wrexham but when they moved down to the South the Welsh language was lost, which if I am honest I find really sad, as I have always wanted to learn and speak it fluently, sadly my Spanish is a lot better then the little bit of Welsh that I can remember from school. What about your ancestors have you come across the same circumstances ? All the best.
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Post by annedw on Oct 16, 2006 13:34:05 GMT
It seems that Christ Church Bwlchgwyn wasn`t consecrated until 1st Oct 1879 so that`s another possible one gone, :(The PR transcripts are in Wrexham and they start with Bpt in 1880 marr 1882 and bur in 1881, I`ve found a list of Non conformist records that are in Wrexham , and there is Bwlchgwyn , Bethesda, WES (C) Bedyddiadau 1866-1929, , and Coedpoeth Cychdiath, Wes(C) Bedyddiaiadu 1859 - 1905, but I think these are baptisms. Have you searched the ACTUAL parish registers for Llanarmon Yn Ial, or just seen MI`s , and certificates. These are not in Wrexham, but are in Flintshire Records Office. I hope to be going there soon , for myself and can easily look at them.
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Post by shedevil on Oct 17, 2006 13:06:32 GMT
I have a copy of the Llanarmon Parish registers if any look ups are required Tracey
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Post by heaffey on Oct 17, 2006 13:41:35 GMT
Hi Tracey
Can you look up the birth details of Gabriel Jones c 1784 please if the parish registers go back that far? also Jane c 1849 - 1st child? of Simon and Catherine Jones.
Thanks
Clare
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Post by shedevil on Oct 18, 2006 17:33:38 GMT
Hi Clare I have found a few items relating to Gabriel Jones:
31st July 1825 Sarah Jones father Gabriel (Miner) Mother Margaret of Rhiw Ial
21st October 1827 Simon Jones father Gabriel (Miner) mother Margaret of Rhiw Ial
30th December 1832 Evan & Hugh Jones(twins) father Gabriel (labourer) mother Margaret of Rhos Goch
22nd May 1836 Evan Jones father Gabriel (Miner) mother Margaret of Square Llan
These are the baptisms but the records i have only go up to 1837 from 1813
The Burial records show 21st Jan 1833 Evan Jones infant of Gabriel of Rhos Goch buried aged 1 month 1st May 1837 Gabriel Jones of Square buried age 53
I did locate some baptisms of a Simon Jones (Butcher) wife Mary who could be related to Gabriel he was married in 1825 and had 6 children within the period 1825 to 1837 if you would like the details please let me know
It may be an idea to post something on Rootschat regarding Gabriels earlier childrens baptism records they are very helpful on there and i'm sure someone has the records for Llanarmon for the period you need
Tracey
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Post by cyngorra on Oct 20, 2006 14:14:29 GMT
Hi, all.
Interesting posts.
I have not searched the parish records for Llanarmon Yn Ial for the period of Simon and Catherine's death - the only parish transcripts I have pre-date that time. Beyond that, the only other sources of information I have been able to access are the death certificates, also the MIs available from Clwyd Family History Society.
Also from the CFHS, I have ordered the Llanarmon Yn Ial parish transcripts for the period 1744 to 1812 - this is to see if Gabriel Jones, 1784-1837, can be traced therein. They shouldn't be long coming back - probably next week. I will post what I find.
I have also ordered the marriage record for a Hugh Jones and Hannah Roberts, registered in Wrexham, Sept quarter, 1855. These are shown at Bwlchgwyn on the 1861 census, also the 1871, but I cannot locate them on the 1881.
Rhiannon - The family were Welsh speaking, though again this has been lost through time. Interestingly, my father learned some Welsh at school and found that was learning a different dialect to that which his father spoke. That highlights, I guess, the passage of the family from North to South. I did think about learning Welsh years ago but it was one of those things which seemed nicer to think of doing than actually do. Now, it seems an almost romantic thing - the language of my fathers (and mothers, apart from those from Somerset) - yet not quite so significant.
As to the photos, Annette, I will try emailing them right now, using my parents' email account.
Dave
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Post by heaffey on Oct 20, 2006 14:58:56 GMT
Hi All
Sorry I haven't acknowledged your last posting detailing of the info on the Jones's. Many thanks. Margaret and Gabriel seemed to move around abit abeit not far. The address of the twins is a new one. Perhaps she went to this place especially to give birth to the twins or perhaps she was just visiting to celebrate the new year in !!! Who knows but she returned to Rhiw Ial later on. At this stage I have no link to the Simon Jones butcher but maybe later these details will be relevant- thanks again.
Dave, you are one step ahead of me, ordering the earlier parish records is a great idea. Hopefully they will confirm Gabriels details ie. that he was a twin and his parents are indeed Thomas and Catherine. I did order a copy myself earlier on in the year but mistakenly ordered the Denbigh records in error ( he got married there not born there!).
On the subject of welsh speaking. My nan refused to learn it much to her parents dismay. She said it was silly language. Shame on her. She had a lovely welsh accent though.
Lastly, Dave on a curious note. Did your parents grow up in Mountain Ash? and even more curiously would they have known or heard of a Norman or Winifred Jones that lived there until about 1939. These were my grandparents and they had a daughter Anita and Elinor. Sorry one more thing, my nan remembers an uncle we think called Kelly who lived near her and he was tall with bright red hair. My mum wonders who he was and asked me to ask you if this means anything to your family. I appreciate that there alot of Jones in Wales but she thought it is worth asking. Not really mad - Clare
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Post by shedevil on Oct 21, 2006 9:25:51 GMT
This maybe a little off topic but i wanted to add that It seems that at least one member of My family ended up in Taff View, Abercynon which i believe is in Mountain Ash A clipping from a newspaper report (sorry no date mentioned) but presumably was around 1964 in reference to my Great Granduncle Robert Owens states that he too came from Minera and worked at Abercynon Colliery for 30 years and had moved to the area around 1914 his children included a Morfydd Benyon of Abercynon, Helen Lewis o f Nelson and a W Owen also of Abercynon but states that their eldest son Robert was reported missing in action during the 1st World war.Im just wondering whether any of you people who came from Mountain Ash recognise any of the names The article was taken from a piece that was reported in the local paper in celebration of Robert Owens 60th Wedding anniversary IT will be included in more detail when i write up a history of my Owens family in due course
Tracey
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Post by Rhiannon on Oct 23, 2006 17:06:13 GMT
Sorry Tracey but the names don't ring a bell with me but I can ask my father, he use to work in Penrhiwceiber pit until it was closed down, if he knows anything I shall let you know.
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Post by cyngorra on Oct 27, 2006 14:46:16 GMT
Hi, all. The Llanarmon Yn Ial parish register transcription for the period 1744 - 1812 arrived today. I haven't had a chance to go into much depth yet - there is quite a lot of material to look through - but, looking for Gabriel Jones born about 1784, I have the following baptism records which are of interest. All baptisms below refer to father and mother Thomas and Catherine ("Cathrine" on the first two references). The occupation of Thomas is not shown. 1773 Dec 19, Elen Jones, of Eryrys 1775 Nov 18, Thomas Jones, of Eryrys 1777 Dec 21, Edward Jones, of Llan 1780 Apr 22, Catherine Jones, of Llan 1782 Aug 15, John Jones, of Llan 1785 Sep 26, Gabriel and Evan Jones (twins), of Tre’r Llan 1788 May 21, Jane Jones, of Llan 1790 May 20, Simon Jones, of Tre’r Llan 1792 May 20, William Jones, of Llan 1793 Dec 28, Mary Jones, of Tre’r Llan 1795 July 11, Hugh Jones, of Llan I need to spend a little time going through the records before making conclusions which may turn out on later investigation to be unfounded. The name Thomas throwd me as it does not seem to occur at all in the family, which seems a little odd. I have also had the marriage certificate for Hugh Jones and Hannah Roberts returned. It shows that the marriage took place at the parish church in the parish of Wrexham on 10 September 1855; Hugh Jones, 22, a bachelor, occupation miner, residence Bersham, father Gabriel Jones, miner, and Hannah Roberts, 22, a spinster, residence Bersham, father William Roberts, labourer. The marriage took place after Banns by W Davies, curate, Hugh Jones by sig, Hannah Roberts by mark. The witnesses were Edward and Catherine Edwards, both by sig. My understanding from GENUKI is that Bersham at that time was part of the parish of Wrexham. Clare - You did ask me a question about some family names - Norman and Winifred Jones who lived in Mountain Ash until about 1939. Also a Kelly. Whilst I am not able to check the board regularly, my parents do, and they have already seen your post. None of the names, or the description, are immediately familiar to my father but he has spoken to his sister and will ask around within the family to see if anyone knows or recalls something - fingers crossed. As to Mountain Ash, I am anchored here, for a number of generations at least. I live in my grandparents' house, next door to the house in which my great-great grandparents lived, and am just a few doors away from the home of my great-grandparents which is just a couple of doors away from the home of my great-great-great grandmother. She, however, was from Somerset. Tracey - my father used to work in Abercynon until a few years ago - the names you mention are not familiar to him but he will ask around to see if some of his old pals can add anything. Again, fingers crossed. For anyone who is interested, you might find the Rhondda Cynon Taf Photographic Archive useful - it contains photos of various events and locations, organised by type and locality. Mountain Ash, Penrhiwceiber and Abercynon are all represented along with all the other areas within RCT. I found a photo of the house in which my great-great grandfather lived (with his second wife on the doorstep) - nice to have as the house has long been demolished. The URL is ljh.d2g.com:81/photos/Dave
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Post by shedevil on Oct 27, 2006 18:00:47 GMT
Just had a quick peek at your post and the places of birth seem extremely interesting to me as the places Llan and Trer' Llan are also mentioned in the Parish records for Llandderffel Where my Owens (Blacksmiths side) originated When i get 5 mins to break from my busy hectic lifestyle of ferrying kids around, working full time and feeding and watering them all, (Phew !!! ) I will have a closer look at the geography of Llannarmon and Llandderfel areas and see if the boundaries ever met, because I have the full set of parish registers for Llandderfel going back quite a few years. Tracey
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Post by shedevil on Oct 28, 2006 14:13:02 GMT
Just had a quick peek at your post and the places of birth seem extremely interesting to me as the places Llan and Tre'r Llan are also mentioned in the Parish records for Llandderffel Where my Owens (Blacksmiths side) originated When i get 5 mins to break from my busy hectic lifestyle of ferrying kids around, working full time and feeding and watering them all, (Phew !!! ) I will have a closer look at the geography of Llannarmon and Llandderfel areas and see if the boundaries ever met, because I have the full set of parish registers for Llandderfel going back quite a few years. Tracey Yes as you can see I'm totally off the plot Llannderfel is nowhere near Llanarmon but the place names are the same as I suspected Tre'r Llan and LLan, maybe these were quite common generic names for houses or places within a district, Anyone any clue
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Post by annedw on Nov 3, 2006 14:19:46 GMT
This is probably a `too good to be true` find, but in this list there is an Evan Jones b about 1847 from Llanarmon Yu Tale . He was a miner killed in a disaster in British Columbia in 1887. If you look down the names there are also some more men from N Wales including one from Brymbo !!. Just a thought !!!! www.rootsweb.com/~bcvancou/places/miners.htm
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Post by cyngorra on Nov 6, 2006 15:14:20 GMT
Hi, Annette,
Interesting - probably is too good to be true but you never know! I'll follow him up in the census records, just out of curiosity.
Thanks.
Dave
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Post by annedw on Nov 8, 2006 18:22:26 GMT
I`ve been to Flintshire Records office today and just had to have another go at Simon and Catherine. I still havn`t found them , not even in Llanarmon, so where now I came across an Evan Jones chr May 22 1842, s/o John Jones a miner and Mary Jones , I wonder if he is the poor man that died in the disaster in Vancouver. I also found a Gabriel Jones buried at Llanarmon yn Ial on March 16 1869 aged 48. His place of abode was Cloddiau duer ?? Hope. If he is the same Gabriel as in the extract below, them he was brought quite a way to be buried in his birthplace, which again leaves us asking "where is Simon." I even had a look at Hope PR`s , just in case, but again nothing. Simon senior had 6 siblings that I know of - Catherine 1818,Gabriel 1822,Sarah 1825,Hugh and Margaret 1832 and Evan 1836 all whom were born in Llanarmon yn Ial and the parents were Gabriel (1785 ?) and Margaret Jones(born 1790 I think this was in one of Clare`s posts.Oh well, back to the drawing board.
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Post by cyngorra on Nov 10, 2006 20:06:31 GMT
Hi, Annette,
Very interested in the reference to the burial of Gabriel Jones in 1869 - I think it is probable that he is indeed the brother to Simon senior. I followed Gabriel from Rhiw Yale, Llanarmon, on the 1851 census through to Glanyrafon, Hope on the 1861 census. On the 1851 census he was living with his mother Margaret and "next door" was Simon and Catherine Jones - whose burial place remains to be discovered.
After that, I have a BMD entry for a death consistent with Gabriel in 1869.
Your information is very useful indeed in adding to, and expanding, the records which I am building up on this family - though I can order the death certificate, I would not have known the location of burial.
That he was buried in Llanarmon, where his other family members were buried, is really quite something.
Of course, I will need to continue pulling together sources of information to confirm this.
Thank you - I would never have found this otherwise.
Dave
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Post by Joan in ne wales on Nov 14, 2006 20:55:36 GMT
Hi all,
I have not posted before, but have found this thread very interesting.
Catherine born Llanbedr 1817 is my 2xgt grandmother, it was me who found her baptism, and went on to find Gabriel,s birth.
I have been to the records office today, and I also looked for the resting place of Catherine and Simon. But no joy. I looked in BrynEgwlys, Gwyddelwern and also Wrexham. A fellow researcher suggested that we might find it if we contact Wrexham Council as they could be interred in the municipal cemetery. Does anyone know who to ring?
I have also found the the death of Margaret b1790, wife of Gabriel. She was buried at Llanarmon-yn-Ial 0n 5th May 1875, aged 85yrs, living at Pant du at the time of her death.
If anyone is interested I now have the marriage details of all the children of Gabriel and Margaret. I will post them if required.
If I find out anymore about this family I will let you know.
Joan
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Post by cyngorra on Nov 17, 2006 16:43:05 GMT
Hi, Joan,
As you'll know from this thread, Simon, the brother to Catherine, is my 2xgreat grandfather.
It's an interesting possibility that Simon and wife may be buried in a municipal cemetery. A brief web search brought up the Clwyd family history society's MIs - Dissenter's burial ground, Rhosddu Road and Ruthin Road cemetery - but I am unsure of the period or population covered by these grounds. There is another cemetery which I think is a municipal one at Ruabon Road, Wrexham but I don't think it covers the time Catherine and Simon died (?).
Thank you for posting the burial details for Margaret b1790, wife of Gabriel. I had been looking for a death certificate for her but there were four or five possibles, if I recall correctly. I've ordered the corresponding certificate - I am interested to see the identity of the informant of the death and their relationship to Margaret. When that certificate is returned, I will post the details.
The only marriage details which I have for the children of Gabriel and Margaret are for Simon and Hugh Jones; if you are willing to post just brief details of the others then I would be grateful as it forms part of the story of this family.
A big thank you to you for taking the history back further - I do not know how I would have located the baptism of Gabriel for a long time to come without your research. All I knew, as detailed earlier in this thread, was the name Gabriel and his absence from the 1851 census. Building a picture of his family - and trying to tie all the details together - is a new area of research; I've been looking at his brothers, seeking to follow their families through the parish records and on to the 1851 census.
I think I've had some success but am still thinking over what I've found. I currently have twelve pages of notes on baptism, marriage and burial records from the parish transcript - and more on my voice recorder ready to be entered.
It is lovely to hear from you - thank you for posting.
Dave
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Post by heaffey on Nov 17, 2006 17:23:10 GMT
Hi All
Have just received my copy of Llanarmons parish registers today and a brief look has revealed the marriage of Thomas Jones to a Catherine Davies on Sept 10 1773. This dates tallies nicely with the birth of their first child. If this is the correct people we have managed to go back one generation further ! The birth of Catherine Davies is not quite so clear at this stage. I have also been quickly checking the 1851 census and it has revealed at least two of Gabriels brothers still living in Llanarmon. If the majority of his family lived there which is quite possible then a large percentage must have been Jones's that were all related.Hugh Jones b 1795 is shown as living in Bryn ogo. This is just around the corner from Rhiw Yale and still standing today. Simon Jones b 1790 is also listed next door at Brynmyarion. I wonder if this is still standing?
Thats all for now Regards Clare
PS Joan sorry I meant to email you regarding this website but its great to hear from you again.
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Post by cyngorra on Nov 17, 2006 18:39:07 GMT
Clare,
Hi!
Hugh Jones and Simon are the two brothers which I have followed through to the 1851 census. You can follow Hugh's family at Bryn r ogo through to 1901.
Also of great interest is the following burial record:
7 May 1836, Catherine Jones, w/o Thomas, abode Bryn'r Ogof, aged 82.
In addition,there is the marriage on Aug 15 1825 of Simon Jones of Bryn 'r' Ogo to Mary Smith. This couple's family can be followed from Nerquis through to Bryn Nywion in the parish record of baptisms. Catherine is baptised Dec 15 1825, Thomas Dec 2 1827, John Aug 16 1835 and Robert Feb 22 1837 .
The latter record shows the abode as Bryn Nywion late of Mynydd Nerquis.
This then ties up with the Simon Jones in the 1851 census - his first son is shown as born at Nerquis.
The marriage of Thomas and Catherine is also of interest - I noted that this was done by licence. I searched the list of marriage bonds at the National Library of Wales web site (http://www.llgc.org.uk/cronfa/index_s_adel.htm) and found the marriage of Thomas and Catherine, ref 82/67 - he is shown as a farmer on this record. The reference shows that there is an affidavit and a bond. I filled in the enquiry form on the web site and today received in the post the request form plus the cost for a copy of the documents (GBP5). I posted it earlier this afternoon.
The bond is contained in Llanelwy / St Asaph 1751-1800 (Dynion - male) and (Merched - female).
I am unsure what to expect from the bond and affidavit as I have never seen these items before. They should, I believe, shed more light on Thomas at least. It may also give Catherine's father as she is shown as a minor, which I think simply means she was under 21.
I have also noted two possible baptisms of a Catherine Davies in 1754 - one has a father Evan which may or may not prove significant.
I have also noted a possible Thomas Jones in the baptism record though I do not have that paperwork to hand right now - I think it is about 1749, father Edward, mother Elen (though the spelling changes through time.) Too early to consider this record anyway.
I am very pleased at your post as it gives me confidence in the notes which I have made.
There is also an Evan Jones at Llan on the 1851 and 1861 census returns. I am doubtful about this one right now as there are two Evan Joneses baptised at Llanarmon - one in 1784 and ours in 1785.
I am still making notes - following different groups of Joneses - just to get a feel for the families that may or may not prove to be of interest. Hence the 12 pages of Joneses.
If the marriage of Thomas and Catherine yields anything additional to what we already know, I will post it here.
Dave
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Post by shedevil on Nov 17, 2006 21:30:39 GMT
Dave Just a thought but may be of some use have you tried the Maes y Broell Chapel regsiters for Simon's Burial in Llanarmon, I believe that they are available at the Denbighshire Records office, i know this is a Methodist Chapel and he was possibly baptised in Llanarmon Church, But its worth a try seeng as you seem to be having difficulty locating his burial place If interested the reference is DRO NTD/346 and covers the years 1855 to 1917 for the copy register of baptisms and burials for Maes-y-droell MC chapel. There is also Bethel Chapel in Rhew Ial which is also a Methodist Chapel with a Burial Ground jura1.rcahms.gov.uk/output/COFLEIN_JURA13676423630534.jpgTracey
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Post by cyngorra on Nov 18, 2006 16:20:34 GMT
Tracey,
Thank you for the info - I've made a note of both of them. Well worth checking them out - after all, the family must be buried somewhere fairly close to Minera.
Dave
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Post by cyngorra on Nov 23, 2006 15:58:13 GMT
Hi, all.
Just to say that I had the copies of the Bond and Affidavit returned for the marriage of Thomas Jones and Cathrine Davies, 10 September 1773.
The details of the affidavit are slim for Thomas - he is stated to be aged 21 years and upwards, and a bachelor.
Cathrine Davies is stated to be aged 19 years and upwards, a spinster, with the consent of her parent, Cathrine Davies "or" Roberts. (I am unsure about the "or", though I suspect it simply means that Roberts is her maiden name.)
This Cathrine's details are consistent with the age of the Catherine who dies aged 82 in 1836 at Bryn r Ogo and with the 1754 baptism of Cathrine Davies to Evan and Cathrine (both sources being from the Llanarmon Yn Ial parish records as transcribed). I do not see any other baptism records for this couple in the records.
There is another Catherine Davies being baptised in 1754, parents David and Catherine, but I do not think this Catherine is a likely candidate - a little later (my notes on this are not with me) they have another child Catherine, suggesting the 1754 child passed away. (The burial record is not conclusive on this point, merely suggestive.)
The affidavit was sworn before John Venables by Thomas Jones, witness David Jones.
The Bond is interesting in that it states Thomas was a farmer and that the person also entering the bond with him was Joseph Lloyd, also of the parish of Llanarmon, a miner. In the presence of John Venables and David Jones; Thomas Jones and Joseph Lloyd.
It may be that David is a brother, functioning as a witness. Not that the name David Jones tells us much about anyone. (Hah!)
That's about it.
Dave
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Post by annedw on Nov 23, 2006 20:31:50 GMT
This thread is three months old, and has the most amount of pages on the site, and still we haven`t found Simon and Catherine. I have thought of one place that never crossed my mind before, and it only occured after reading a local history book. I will reveal all or nothing as the case may be when I have tried that line Don`t get your hopes up too high though, they`ve evaded us all so far.
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Post by annedw on Nov 24, 2006 16:19:10 GMT
And still havn`t found them My long shot was that part of Bwlchgwyn was later made a ward of the parish of Brymbo. The first church in Brymbo was 1837 and burials began soon after -- but none of that matters `cos they are not there. Oh well
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Post by cyngorra on Nov 25, 2006 16:32:36 GMT
Annette,
Thank you for your efforts regarding the 1867/68 burials of Catherine and Simon Jones - I am beginning to think that if you have not found them, no-one will!
I have been following up a (minor) line of enquiry, working backwards. A little too early yet but I wondered if the burial of Simon junior might yield some clues to the denomination of the parents. All I have found so far is that Simon junior and his second wife are buried in unconsecrated ground - which appears to the way of things for nonconformists - and that his second wife, Ann, was buried by Rev W Rhys Jones. A search of Kelly's 1895 S Wales directory identifies a Rev William R Jones, place of worship shown as "Baptist (Welsh), Penrhiwceiber".
Simon was buried by a different minister some 20 or so years later - probably the same denomination, I would expect, though unconfirmed at the moment.
Does it seem reasonable to think that Simon junior might have been following his parents in their religious observance? It seems possible, though the amount of time that passes, and other influences (such as a particularly devout wife, for example), might mean it is a red herring.
I've only just come across this so am still a little uncertain as to any real relevance to the burial of Simon senior and Catherine Jones. It might be of no use at all, though it is interesting to me in its own right in relation to Simon junior, so not a waste of time.
Thank you.
Dave
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