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Post by cyngorra on Sept 16, 2008 21:16:29 GMT
Just a couple of comments.
Regarding the marriage of Simon Jones (1827 - 1868) to Catherine Owens in 1848 - at this time Simon Jones is shown as a servant, as is Catherine Owens. The first record I have in which he turns up as a lead miner is the 1851 census when he is at Rhiw Ial, Llanarmon yn ial. It is here that his son, also called Simon (my great grandfather) is born in January 1852. In August 1855, the family is at Minera for the birth of Gabriel Jones (the great great grandfather of Clare).
In case it is of interest to anyone, I have put a transcript of the marriage certificate at the end of this post.
As to the birthdate of Gabriel Jones, father of the above Simon Jones, I do not think the date of 1784 is necessarily an error in the sense that it is a reasonable inference from a documentary source which is contemporaneous with the event which it records; Gabriel's burial at Llanarmon yn ial. The weight attached to that source in respect of his age is, perhaps, another matter. In a sparse record, though, it assumes a significance which it might otherwise not warrant.
I have, in any event, only seen the information in transcript.
Clare, it is good to see you back.
Dave
8 February 1848, marriage solemnized at the Parish Church in the Parish of Wrexham in the County of Denbigh.
Simon Jones, age "full", bachelor, servant, of Esclusham Above, father Gabrail Jones, miner, and Catharine Owens, age "full", spinster, servant, of Esclusham Above, father John Owens, labourer.
Married in the Parish Church according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the Established Church, by banns, by me, Granger Cunliffe. Vicar.
Both by "mark".
Witnesses: signatures of Bernard Shepton (?) and Vivian (?) (surname unclear).
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Post by colcon on Sept 17, 2008 9:20:24 GMT
To: Dave
Had to break off yesterday part way through. I'm sending off these Posts in time-limited sessions on computers in a busy public library.
To continue wih Reply 88 -
The 2 districts broadly therefore were a) the area to the south of the river Aber Sychnant/Clywedog and b) the area to the north of the river.
Included in the 1861 census for the 'North Minera District' are 5 pages of households starting with household schedule number 132 and ending with number 192.
Missing therefore are all the households numbered 1 to 131 and there somewhere would be your untraceable Simon Jones and family.
Included is the top end of the 'North Minera District' -- Tan y Bwlch/Old Gate House area, the 'Bwlch Gwyn Mountain' area, etc.
Missing are the Plas Gwyn/Plas Gwyn Mountain area, Berwig/Berwick area, Maes y Ffynnon area, etc.
PS Now just seen Replies 89 and 90.
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Post by cyngorra on Sept 17, 2008 10:00:12 GMT
colcon,
I become aware a while ago that there were missing pages from the 1861 census in question but I was not aware of the detail - your information has clarified exactly what was missing. I suspect the family are within the missing Plas Gwyn returns. Certainly in Jan 1863 there is an appropriately aged Gabriel Jones who, in attending Minera school, provides an address of Plas Gwyn Avenue.
Regards,
Dave
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Post by heaffey on Sept 17, 2008 11:28:43 GMT
Yesterday I ordered what I thought to be the death certificate for Margaret Jones. Alas I have been informed this morning by Ruthin Registar Office that in fact it is for and infant of the same name in Llanarmon. Back to the drawing board! I have given what details I have i.e. Gabriel was the husband and the last trace of Margaret is in the 1871 census. Hopefully they may find the correct death certificate otherwise I will need to provide more details. If anyone has already ordered a certficate for this lady disregarding the 1875 one can you please advise to save anymore wasted time and money.
Thank you Clare
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Post by cyngorra on Sept 17, 2008 12:18:55 GMT
Hi, Clare,
That's disappointing news about the death record. In case it is of any help, I have details for the following index entries, all death certs for a Margaret Jones, all registered in Ruthin.
1 - Age at death 85, Registered 1875, June quarter Volume: 11b Page: 271
This has been referred to previously in connection with a burial record for a Margaret Jones in the parish record for Llanarmon yn ial. Connecting it to the census returns, it appears not to be ours, though I will repost the details in case anyone wishes to double-check.
The cert shows Margaret Jones, formerly a farmer, of "Pant Du", informant Jane Price, niece, also of "Pant Du". I do not have my notes to hand but the lady is traceable on the 1871 census, aged 81, living with Jane Price. She is shown as a spinster, born in Llanarmon, and may be traced through the census returns to 1851.
2 - Age at death 84, Registered 1873, September Quarter Volume: 11b Page: 213
This is the widow of Edward Jones, location Llandyrnog.
3 - Age at death 81, Registered 1871, June quarter Volume: 11b Page: 247
This seems unlikely but I copy it here in case others might care to pursue it.
"Death in the sub-district of Ruthin of Margaret Jones, aged 81, a labourer's widow, on 6 April 1871 at "railway level crossing near Ruthin", cause of death "Accidentally killed while attempting to pass over a level railway crossing near Ruthin", informant "Evan Pierce, Coroner for the Denbigh District, Inquest held 7 April 1871".
As an aside, this is just four days after the 1871 census. The lack of detail does not help - the location is vague, there are no family details. Possibly there could be a corresponding burial record at Llanarmon yn ial, if it is the correct Margaret?
None of it seems helpful except to prevent re-orders..
Dave
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Post by heaffey on Sept 17, 2008 12:45:46 GMT
You are so efficient Dave. Well I narrowed it down to 4 distinct possibilites and yep they are exactly the same as yours! I was hopeful about the last one. How can a death certificate be issued without any family/informants names be mentioned? I have three possibilities and they are - 1) 1872 Ruthin 11b 245 but aged 79 2) Sept 1882 Ruthin aged 91 3) Dec 1887 Ruthin aged 96
The last two obviously lead to the question where was she in the 1881 census??
I hate being beaten !
Thank for the info Dave
Clare
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Post by heaffey on Sept 17, 2008 13:20:48 GMT
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Post by cyngorra on Sept 18, 2008 9:58:50 GMT
Hi, Clare,
The first index entry you mention - 1872 Ruthin 11b 245 - for the death of a Margaret Jones is not one which I was aware of, perhaps because I was focussing too tightly on her anticipated age. It is very much a possibility though - I have one family member whose age was understated by the informant by eight years, probably out of ignorance as the headstone was correct.
I guess this would carry over to the burial records too - when Joan kindly posted the burial record she had found for a Margaret Jones of Pant Ddu, it seemed that this was the only burial reference for a Margaret Jones consistent with ours.
The only other possibility I can see is that Margaret, in her advancing years, was taken in by another family member, perhaps taking her into another registration district. It might also mean she was not buried in Llanarmon. Seems less likely to me than her being in Llanarmon.
Dave
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Post by colcon on Sept 19, 2008 10:09:10 GMT
To: Dave
At this point I will now mention that my Llanarmon-born greatx2 grandfather Evan Jones(1816-1867), like your greatx2 grandmother Catherine, also died in the Plas Gwyn area of Minera and in the same year. He died there age 51 in November 1867.
That is, he died a year before his first cousin died in that Minera explosion in November 1868. This first cousin of course being Simon Jones senior, your greatx2 grandfather, mentioned in your very own first Post.
Evan Jones was definitely buried in the Wern Capel Cemetery, Minera in 1867 which was then usually the alternative burial place to the Minera Churchyard for non-conformists of various denominations living in the area.
Let me know therefore to what extent are you still looking for the burials in 1867 and 1868 of your greatx2 grandparents or have you since found them. If not there are some leads which I can give you to follow up.
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Post by cyngorra on Sept 19, 2008 17:25:43 GMT
Hi, colcon,
Any leads you can offer regarding the possible burial place of Simon and Catherine Jones would be welcome. At this time, I have no follow-up ideas beyond what has been posted. I do not have all my details to hand but some of the chapels which have interested me have turned out not to have any records available at the record office - clearly, if I can find a burial place consistent with a particular denomination then I would also hope to locate baptism records.
Thanks.
Dave
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Post by colcon on Sept 22, 2008 11:33:23 GMT
To: Dave
If you enter in Google Search - Minera Parish Records Search -it will lead you to a website (www.the-red-zone.co.uk) which it seems has been on Internet since June 2007. I'm unsure as to whether you were aware of this useful site.
As you will see from the Home Page, it contains sections for a) Baptisms, b) Marriages, c) Burials and d) Accidents. The records include some information avaiable previously (in particular the various Parish Church Registers) but more importantly some other material which had not been available before.
Since you started your thread with an inquiry about the 1868 Minera explosion which killed Simon Jones, firstly here therefore a reference to the 'Accidents' section.
The 'Mining Accidents & Miscellaneous Deaths' section provides some information relating to accidents in the area from the 1860s onwards. Although accidents on two dates before 1868 are included, one in 1863 and the other in 1864, there is no reference to the 1868 accident. These records therefore are incomplete, particularly it seems for the early years covered.
If the 1868 accident had been included, there might then have been a reference to Simon Jones' Inquest (eg in the Denbighshire Quarter Sessions Records) but it looks as if his Inquest details are lost for ever.
Next time I will come to the Burials section in the MPRS as it contains the Burials Register for Wern Chapel Cemetery, Minera.
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Post by cyngorra on Sept 22, 2008 12:28:43 GMT
Hi, colcon,
Yes, I am aware of the Minera parish records site - unfortunately, there do not appear to be any records on the site relating to the family apart from the marriage records referred to in earlier posts.
Thanks anyway.
Dave
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Post by colcon on Sept 25, 2008 10:08:14 GMT
To: Dave
And now a diversion.
The Llanarmon area is the place where the 'Tithe War in Wales' (around 1886 to 1895) started, the first distraint sale having taken place there.
At the Denbighshire Records Office there is an article/essay titled 'Reminiscences of the tithe war in Llanarmon and Llanferres' (1912 in Welsh).
When i visit the Ruthin RO shortly I will have a look at this item to see if the families at Bryn'r Ogof and Rhiw Ial were involved in any in the tithe war at Llanarmon.
One of the areas 'famous sons' is E Tegla Davies --Rev (or Rev Dr) Edward Tegla Davies(1880-1967) who was born at Llandegla and in his younger years also lived at Pentre Bais and Bwlchgwyn.
As well as being a chapel minister he was a noted preacher, hymn writer and editor of religious magazines. He was also a prolific writer in Welsh of novels and children's books.
His most famous novel 'Gwr Pen y Bryn'(1923) is based on the tithe war in the Llanarmon area and this novel is one of only a few Welsh novels which have been translated into English - 'The Master of Penybryn'(1975).
You could obtain a copy should you be interested, through the Inter Library Lending Service, at your local library.
There is an informative article about the tithe war in the June 2003 issue of the magazine 'Country Quest', back issues of which should be available at a library near you.
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Post by cyngorra on Sept 25, 2008 11:35:29 GMT
Re: Tithe Wars
That's interesting. My only awareness of the tithe wars comes from having read a Times newspaper article "Tithe Agitation In Wales" dated 23 Aug 1886. This, referring to remarkable scenes at Llanarmon yn ial, stated that on 16 July 1886 the rector's rent audit was held at the village inn but little or no money was paid by the farmers, who wished for a reduction due to falling prices, leading on the 17th to bailiffs arriving to distrain for the tithes. The close of the article states that "26 farmers and occupiers have refused to pay tithes under any circumstances whatever..." with others willing to pay but only if the already incurred legal costs were not passed on to them. That was as far as my reading went, though I was aware of further articles and letters on the subject.
The novel sounds like it might be worth a read, whether or not family members were involved in it.
Regards,
Dave
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Post by heaffey on Sept 27, 2008 8:58:05 GMT
I have been in contact with Ruthin records office re the death certificate of Margaret Jones (wife of Gabriel senior) and they have checked but have been unable to trace the correct one. Back to square one! Maybe there will be a burial record at Llanarmon church presuming she was laid to rest there. I am unsure if I do check the records whether there would be any other details shown other than date and name?
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Post by cyngorra on Sept 27, 2008 11:34:18 GMT
Hi, Clare,
Re: Margaret Jones
It is a puzzle. There does not seem to be an immediately apparent death certificate for her registered in Ruthin, perhaps because the age is in error. Either that or she, in her advancing years, was taken in by a member of the family a little more distant, perhaps meaning she was registered in another registration district, perhaps buried elsewhere too.
I cannot see her being that far away, not so far that she could not be buried with her family at Llanarmon. Whether she was or not though is another matter. If buried in Llanarmon then the only hope is that she is recorded as the widow of Gabriel. There does not seem to be any rule about whether such a distinction would be recorded. That leaves me unsure, too, as to what might be expected of such a reference if it exists. If not as definitive as a reference to Gabriel then a location of Rhiw Ial would be of interest.
Of her family, the only members I think might be traceable are the sons. Gabriel appears to have died in Flintshire in 1869. Hugh appears to have remained in Minera parish, possibly dying in 1876 or 1879. Evan seems to be in Llanarmon village, as a tailor, on the 1871 census, though he too appears to die young, perhaps in 1876. Given the surname, it is all "perhaps" and not enough to shed much light on where Margaret might be if she were taken in by a member of the family.
There is a death index entry in Wrexham which I found when originally looking for Margaret Jones - I did not pay much attention to it then, though I recorded it out of interest. I note it here but with caution - it is not so surprising to find a Margaret Jones of the right age in a large population.
Name: Margaret Jones Estimated Birth Year: abt 1790 Year of Registration: 1878 Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar Age at Death: 88 District: Wrexham (1837-1974) County: Cheshire, Denbighshire, Flintshire Volume: 11b Page: 236
I think you are right that the best place to search is the Llanarmon burial records - that will shed some light on the whole question and might suggest other avenues to explore. Something will be learned, even if it is only the possibility that she might not be buried there at all. I hope that is not the case.
Dave
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Post by Joan in ne wales on Oct 4, 2008 20:50:02 GMT
Hi All, Haven't been on this site for a long time but met Clare at Llanarmon Parish Church open day today and she was saying that you still had not found the death of Gabriel's wife Margaret. I actually found her some time ago on the 1881 census living with her daughter sarah and s-i-l Richard Parry at Tyddyn Tlodion, Llanarmon. RG11/5521. I subsequently found and sent for her death cert, She died on 17 Dec 1887 aged 96years, widow of Gabriel Jones, probably of old age. The parish registers today showed her buried on 22nd Dec 1887.
My apologies for not returning to this thread sooner with this information.
Regards Joan
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Post by cyngorra on Oct 5, 2008 13:18:02 GMT
Hi, Joan,
Thank you so much for posting this - it has answered a question which at first seemed straightforward enough to answer but quickly became difficult. Having not found her on the 1881 census I made the assumption she must have died, which was clearly in error, hence a lot of searching through possible entries between 1871 and 1881. Now those queries can be put aside.
Thank you again.
Dave
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Post by cyngorra on Nov 6, 2008 12:03:47 GMT
Further to the information I posted in reply #80 regarding Robert Jones, whom I suspected to be a possible son of Simon Jones (1827-1868) and Catherine Jones formerly Owens (1826 - 1867), I am pleased to say that I have located a birth certificate.
This shows that Robert Jones was born on 19 January 1863 at Plas Gwyn Mountain, Minera, to Simon Jones and Catherine Jones formerly Owens.
This would seem to be sufficient to encompass the documents already collated, allowing for the uncertainty of the 1881 census return mentioned earlier.
Following the death of Simon and Catherine, three of their children (Simon, Gabriel and Margaret) are shown at Bwlchgwyn at the time of the 1871 census. I do not know where Robert was at that time - he might be with relatives, perhaps even a little further afield. He might not be traceable with any certainty.
Dave
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Post by cyngorra on Nov 7, 2008 15:29:51 GMT
Just a minor piece of information following on from colcon's information regarding the burial of Thomas Jones of Bryn'r ogof, aged 90, on 4 Dec 1838 at Llanarmon Yn Ial (Reply 86).
The death cert shows that Thomas died on 30 November 1838 at Bryn'r ogo, aged 90, occupation "farmer". The informant was "Hugh Jones, occupier, Bryn'r ogo, Llanarmon".
Though not stated, this Hugh would most likely be the son of Thomas, shown on census records in 1851/61/71 as detailed in earlier posts.
If baptised at Llanarmon Yn Ial, then a date of birth inferred from Thomas's age at death plays into speculation already referred to in this thread by myself and davies1974 (reply 70 is one such post) regarding a 1749 baptism to Edward and Elin.
Thank you to colcon for providing the burial information.
Dave
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Post by cyngorra on Feb 1, 2009 12:41:05 GMT
Further to Joan's post - Reply #106 on Oct 4, 2008 - that Margaret Jones, wife of Gabriel, was living with her daughter Sarah and son-in-law Richard Parry at Tyddyn Tlodion, Llanarmon yn Ial, on the 1881 census and at the time of her death in 1887.
The Feb 1, 1888 issue of Welsh language weekly Y Genedl Cymreig refers to the death of "Margaret Jones, Tyddyn Tlodion, aged 96", this apparently being of note because she was the oldest widow in Llanarmon yn Ial parish. It also refers to two grandsons, apparently (presumably) hers; Robert Jones, Bwlchgwyn, who was a leader of the United Choirs of Bwlchgwyn, and Mr Thomas Jones, Rhiw Ial, who apparently was a well known conductor in the surrounding area.
I also found a notice of the death of Sarah Parry in the Sep 19, 1896 issue of Baner Ac Amserau Cymru. The same notice appears in the Sep 23, 1896 issue, plus - in a much briefer form - in the Sep 29, 1896 edition of Y Genedl Cymreig. The full notice mentions that her parents were Gabriel and Margaret Jones, Rhiw Ial and that she died Sep 4th.
Dave
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Post by benger7 on May 22, 2009 17:44:53 GMT
Hello all, I have not posted before but I have followed this thread for sometime. Simon Jones was my 2 x gt grandfather via his son Gabriel. I have just returned from a visit to Minera Lead Mines which I found very interesting and well presented. On the way back to the hotel I passed through a small village with a church and graveyard. It was not until I got back home and checked the map that I realised that the village was Eryrys. I re-read the posts on this thread but could find no reference to Eryrys being searched. I apologise if I am wrong and someone has already looked there, but if not is there any chance someone could have a look to see if Simon and Catherine are there. Thanks to all who have searched for them in the past and to all who have posted. Denise
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