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Post by cyngorra on Dec 5, 2006 14:54:17 GMT
Just an update to the earlier postings regarding the possible death record for Margaret Jones, mother of Simon Jones senior.
Unfortunately, I do not think the reference to the burial of a Margaret Jones at Llanarmon in 1875 fits with "our" Margaret Jones. The details of the death certificate show her occupation as "formerly farmer" and as living with a Jane Price, niece, at the time of her death - tracing her in the census record shows her, aged 81, living with Jane Price in 1871. Her birthplace is shown as Llanarmon and she is unmarried. She may be traced through the census to 1851.
This is a separate entry to the Margaret Jones at Rhiw Yale whose birthplace is Llanbedr.
A pity, then, but it was definitely worth following up.
Thanks.
Dave
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Post by shedevil on May 7, 2007 11:17:42 GMT
Just a little piece of information I came across recently, which may give some indication to why you cannot locate the graves of your ancestors in Llanarmon Yn Iâl, is that the churchyard was cleared of many of the headstones in the 1960's and some of these were used to support the bankings of a stream near to Llandegla This may explain why you haven't located any graves for your family to date. I believe that the area where this took place was at the south side of the church
Just another bit of useless info
Tracey
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Post by davies1974 on Jun 27, 2008 19:17:37 GMT
I appreciate I'm resurrecting an old thread here but I need a bit of clarity on how all these Jones link together! I am particularly interested in these quotes from Heaffey & Cyngorra - Heaffey - "Simon Jones b 1790 is also listed next door at Brynmyarion. I wonder if this is still standing?"Cyngorra - " In addition, there is the marriage on Aug 15 1825 of Simon Jones of Bryn 'r' Ogo to Mary Smith. This couple's family can be followed from Nerquis through to Bryn Nywion in the parish record of baptisms. Catherine is baptised Dec 15 1825, Thomas Dec 2 1827, John Aug 16 1835 and Robert Feb 22 1837 .
The latter record shows the abode as Bryn Nywion late of Mynydd Nerquis.
This then ties up with the Simon Jones in the 1851 census - his first son is shown as born at Nerquis."I believe 'Brynmyarion and Bryn Nywion to be the same place and as far as I can tell this Simon Jones is my g g g grandfather via Robert. This Simon Jones died before 1861 as Mary, John and Robert are then living in Erywys and Mary is liste as a farmers Widow. By 1871 Robert has married and is living in Bersham. My family has never really left the area and my aunt, now in her 70's has live in Minera all her life. So is my Simon Jones connected to the Simon Jones who died in the explosion or just name that came out in the wash? I'm sorry if it was explained through the thread and i missed it but trying to piece together all the info in this thread has addled my brain!!! Thanks
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Post by davies1974 on Jun 27, 2008 19:53:39 GMT
Appreciate I resurrecting an old thread here but I need a bit of clarity on how all the Jones link together. I am particularly interested in these quotes from Heaffey & Cyngorra - Heaffey - "Simon Jones b 1790 is also listed next door at Brynmyarion. I wonder if this is still standing?"Cyngorra - " In addition, there is the marriage on Aug 15 1825 of Simon Jones of Bryn 'r' Ogo to Mary Smith. This couple's family can be followed from Nerquis through to Bryn Nywion in the parish record of baptisms. Catherine is baptised Dec 15 1825, Thomas Dec 2 1827, John Aug 16 1835 and Robert Feb 22 1837 .
The latter record shows the abode as Bryn Nywion late of Mynydd Nerquis.
This then ties up with the Simon Jones in the 1851 census - his first son is shown as born at Nerquis."I believe 'Brynmyarion and Bryn Nywion to be the same place and as far as I can tell this Simon Jones is my g g g grandfather via Robert. This Simon Jones died before 1861 as Mary, John and Robert are by then living in Erywys and Mary is listed as a 'Farmers Widow'. By 1871 Robert has married and is living in Bersham. My family has never really left the area and my aunt, now in her 70's has lived in Minera all her life. So is my Simon Jones connected to the Simon Jones who died in the explosion or just name in this thread that came out in the wash? I'm sorry if it was explained through the thread and i missed it but trying to piece together all the info in this thread has addled my brain!!! Thanks
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Post by heaffey on Jul 1, 2008 9:44:59 GMT
Hi all, Sorry haven't been on the website recently so have only seen the recent posings. Pleased to hear from you Dave, I will think about your recent posting re Margaret when I get a moment. Understand there will be an event coming up at the Llanarmon church later in the year. This could be interesting. Hi Davies, With regards to Simon Jones there indeed two of them. My Gt gt gt grandfather born 21/10/1827 in Llanarmon to Margaret and Gabriel. The other is Simon Jones senior born 20/5/1790 who was Gabriels younger brother and uncle to Simon junior. So to cut a very long story short yes they were related. Gabriel was one of 12 children and we were trying to piece where all the family were in the later censuses which is when we came upon Simon at Brynmyarion and Hugh at Bryn Ogo . Kind Regards Clare
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Post by davies1974 on Jul 1, 2008 11:10:18 GMT
That's brilliant! I love it when I find present day family connections! - I've recently found a family connection to Robert Jones wife's line living in new zealand and they had traced that branch all the way back to 1620! I had not long started looking at my Jones line - Looking back through these posts you say Gabriel & Simons parents were Thomas & Catherine? I have ordered the Llanarmon parish reg's from the Clwyd History Society and am planning on visiting the open day you spoke about to see what I can find. Regards Col
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Post by heaffey on Jul 1, 2008 11:30:54 GMT
Hi Col Yes their parents were Thomas and Catherine Davies. I'll let you enjoy reading the transcripts and see if we come up with the same theories. It's great when you come across other people searching the same family. Thats how me and Dave connected. He was investigating Simon junior at exactly the same time as me which is a bit spooky !!!Good luck! Clare
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Post by annedw on Jul 1, 2008 13:51:14 GMT
Just to say I have looked again and again for the inquest or anything in the newspapers about the death of Simon, but still drawn a blank. The papers were full of the election news at the time, and I looked forward in case there was anything that had been held back. I found inquests that had, but they were dated later than Simon, so still no joy there then.
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Post by cyngorra on Jul 1, 2008 18:42:56 GMT
Hi Col - Thanks for the heads-up about your addition to this thread.
As Clare has already said, the connection between your Simon Jones and the Simon Jones of this thread appears to lie in the family of Thomas Jones and Catherine Davies. It would seem that among the children arising from their marriage are Gabriel Jones, father of the Simon Jones of this thread, and your Simon Jones. It also appears that another brother, Hugh Jones, was at Bryn r ogo.
From my perspective, the line from Thomas and Catherine Jones seems to run through Gabriel 1784-1837, to Simon 1827-1868, Simon 1852-1921, my grandfather Gabriel 1894-1963, and my father Howell. It all remains a work in progress.
There is a quite a lot of information in the Llanarmon-yn-ial parish records relating to the family; I think you will find it very interesting to read, plus it might help when you can see the pattern of references for yourself - this thread is packed with information but it might be a little difficult to digest on its own. It helps, I think, when you can read over the source material without the filter of another's perspective of that material.
I was interested to read your comments regarding your family history, especially as you say your family has never really left the area. Trying to pin down a family named Jones among all the other families named Jones can be challenging, though also enjoyable.
I am glad you posted and hope to hear more from you.
Claire - nice to hear from you. I haven't done much on this side of the family for a while, perhaps because I ground to a halt in uncertainty, without a clear idea of how to move forward. I've followed one or two leads but these have come to nought, though I did find - and you may already know this - a reference to Gabriel Jones b 1855; it is very slight though. Denbighshire Archive Office provided the following information: "The admission registers for Minera school covering the period 1862-9 (ref: ED/AR/82/1-2)... There is a Gabriel Jones listed, who entered the school on 12 January 1863, aged 7 years 5 months, residence Plas Gwyn Avenue, father's occupation miner, who may be the child of Simon and Catherine Jones, but that is all the information there is."
I had also wondered if there would be any mention of the children of Simon and Catherine Jones in the poor law records of the time as they would have been very young to have lost their parents, therefore perhaps the parish would have been involved in some way, however small, in making arrangements for them, but this came to nought too.
My parents were back in North Wales at the end of last year, though only briefly. They went to Rhiw ial, Llanarmon-yn-ial, looking for a possible burial place of Simon Jones, 1827-1868. Obviously, nothing was found as I would have posted immediately. It remains of interest, though, that Bethel Calvinistic Methodist Chapel at Rhiw ial has a burial ground. Right place for the early years of the family, possibly the right denomination, but no burial records in the archive.
Annedw - nice of you to post! Given all your efforts, I do not think there is any reference for the death of Simon Jones. I obtained a second-hand copy of the Pubs and Inquests book - knowing there was no reference to Simon but interested in any event - and reflect that, bar for the timing of the death, there might have been a record of the inquest giving much more information than the death certificate. Thank you, though, for all your efforts.
Dave
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Post by heaffey on Jul 1, 2008 19:30:01 GMT
Hi Dave Good to hear from you after this long time. I have only just returned to the Jones myself after a long break. I did visit Llanarmon about 18 mths ago and visited the church at Rhiw Ial but there was no visible graves of our relatives. Rhiw Ial lane is still there and on the right hand side are some very old cottages which could be where Margaret and Gabriel resided but there are also newer bungalows that no doubt would have replaced older properties. Interesting the notes on Simon at the school. Being born on 6/8/1855 this would tie up exactly with the time of his school admittance. As you have not been able to trace any poor law records for Simon and Catherines children I think that Hugh (Simons brother helped look after them. My theory being that the eldest daughter Jane would have been old enough to have been in employment if she was alive (no trace other than baptism records) Gabriel was with Hugh and Simon and Margaret were next door. Both heads were miners and obviously Hugh was Simon seniors brother and the orphans uncle. Oh to go back in time for a short time !! Regards Clare
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Post by davies1974 on Jul 2, 2008 11:54:24 GMT
Okay - got my copy of the Llanarmon parish registers this morning and this is what I've come up with so far!! Thomas Jones marries Catherine Davies on the 10/09/1773 To confirm an earlier post possible children attributed to them include Elen Christened 12/09/1773 Thomas Christened 18/11/1775 Edward "" "" 21/12/1777 Catherine "" "" 22/04/1780 John "" "" 15/08/1782 Gabriel & Evan (twins) "" "" 26/09/1785 Jane "" "" 21/05/1788 Simon "" "" 20/05/1790 William "" "" 20/05/1792 Mary "" "" 28/12/1793 Hugh "" "" 11/07/1795 What are your thoughts on the marriage date of 10/09/1773 and the christening of Elen on 19/12/1773 - two months after the marriage! BTW the only other Thomas and Catherine Jones listes where married in 1753 so I have attributed all these children to our Thomas and Catherine. For Catherine Davies I have 2 possible sets of parents On 01/26/1754 David and Catherine Davies christened twins Catherine and Anne and on 14/12/1754 Evan and Catherine Davies christened a Catherine Davies - As we know one of Thomas and Catherines children was called Evan so this looks a good match but the other possibility also raises questions as don't twins often run in families?!! For Thomas Jones I've found three possible matches. 1 x 23/04/1746 to John and Anne 1 x 18/12/1749 to Edward and Elin 1 x 03/09/1751 to Thomas and Elizabeth As both Edward and Elin (Elen) feature in the names of the children that one is my favourite for likely candidate but John and Thomas both feature aswell. Anyway I've only just started - I'll keep you posted
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Post by cyngorra on Jul 2, 2008 13:40:43 GMT
Hi, Col,
Yes, Elen Jones was baptised just a couple of months after the marriage; this might well be the explanation for the marriage being by license rather than banns.
Of the two possible baptisms of a Catherine Davies, I lean towards the Dec 14, 1754 baptism, parents Evan and Catherine Davies. The "other" Catherine was born to David and Catherine Davies; in 1763 there is another Catherine baptised to David and Catherine Davies. This would suggest the death of the earlier child, if this is the same couple. I attach no certainty to my thoughts on this.
The identity of Thomas is also interesting, though perhaps difficult to prove which, if any, of the Thomases is he. Like you, I find the Edwards and Elin reference intriguing. One thing I had hoped for with the marriage bond would have been another member of the family, perhaps the father's name, but none was given, only the identity of Catherine's mother.
There is a great deal of information in the record, though, and your analysis of it has me thinking about it afresh, which is always a good thing.
Claire - My parents looked at the old cottages at Rhiw Ial too. Such a small grouping of houses - I think of the census that only a few are listed under Rhiw Ial. I managed to get hold of a second-hand copy of Just One Parish, a history of Llanarmon-yn-ial, which I found very interesting. One item was that of a servant girl at Bryn Mywion called Pegi, "through whom her master and mistress Mr and Mrs Samuel Davies became dissenters and bought a piece of land at Rhiw Ial in 1786 on which to build a chapel (Calvinistic Methodist Chapel). Whilst it was being built, services were held at Rhiw Ial house and in the yard of the Butcher's Arms (now Raven)".
As to the poor law, etc, I had been wondering of other sources of information other than baptisms, etc, where names might be recorded. Nothing has come of that so far, apart from Gabriel attending school in Minera.
Best wishes,
Dave
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Post by davies1974 on Jul 2, 2008 13:41:16 GMT
Okay - this thread is making much more sense to me now and I see my last post was repeating a lot of info already posted Dave - I see you also believe Elin and Edward to be likely candidates for Thomas's parents. In the burial registers Elin Jones appears to be listed as Ellinor, wife of Edward, farmer. She was buried Dec 1st 1806 aged 86 and is listed as 'formerly Ellinor Thomas' Edward Jones and 'Elin' Thomas married 16th Jan 1742 - I can't find any previous entries for any Elin Thomas (or variations) born circa 1710 but something which stood out to me is in 1732 a John Thomas of Llanarmon married a Elin Evans of Llangollen. I suppose you could speculate that Edward Jones could have been Elin's 2nd husband if she was widowed but should then the listing of her death in 1806 not say 'formerly Evans' not 'formery Thomas' - beacause of that I don't think this is a likely match.
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Post by sharonbrown2 on Jul 2, 2008 15:40:54 GMT
Hi, I don't suppose I could be cheeky and ask whether there were any Smallwood's mentioned in the Llanarmon Parish Records. I have been to the graveyard on several occasions looking for their graves (I have been told there is a family grave) but still have yet to find the gravestone. It has supposedly been moved and when I visit the village, there is nobody to be seen to ask.
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Post by eluned on Jul 2, 2008 15:48:34 GMT
Checked index Llanarmon yn Ial transcriptions for 1744-1812, no Smallwoods sorry.
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Post by davies1974 on Jul 2, 2008 16:51:36 GMT
Can't see any smallwoods in the 1683 - 1743 records either - sorry
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Post by sharonbrown2 on Jul 2, 2008 17:45:32 GMT
Many thanks for looking. I appreciate it.
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Post by cyngorra on Jul 2, 2008 18:55:26 GMT
Col - I hadn't seen the ref to the 1806 burial of Ellinor, wife of Edward, farmer - thanks for posting it. Whether this particular couple can be connected to Thomas Jones I do not know but it is an interesting line of inquiry to follow. Being able to find a link between the various families seems very difficult though. I haven't gone over the records in quite some time - your posts have reminded me that there is still a lot of ground to cover.
Smallwoods - I looked in the Llanarmon Yn Ial transcript for 1813 to 1837 but did not find any. Sorry.
Dave
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Post by Hen Locsin on Jul 2, 2008 21:34:28 GMT
Sharonbrown2 Speaking recently to the rector of Llanarmon, on another matter, he did explain that the vast area to the North ( ? ) of the church whilst not exhibiting any stones still held very many graves. So don't be misled into thinking that only a small area of the graveyard has so far been used. Hen Locsin
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Post by sharonbrown2 on Jul 3, 2008 7:49:35 GMT
Hi, That more than likely explains why I haven't been able to find anything on the Smallwood Family Grave. Think I will take a trip to Llanarmon when they have the open day and hope someone may have a plan of the plots for the graveyard. Thanks again for your time.
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Post by cyngorra on Aug 12, 2008 16:41:28 GMT
Robert Jones 1863/4-1922
I had thought of creating a new thread for this but, as the information is slight and only builds on what is already in this thread, I thought I would add it here.
Simon Jones 1827-1868, the subject of this thread, and his wife Catherine (Owens), had four children of which I have become aware - Jane, born about 1849 at Llanarmon Yn Ial, Simon Jones, my great grandfather, born 1852 at Llanarmon Yn Ial, Gabriel Jones, born 1855 Minera, and Margaret Jones, born 1860 at Bwlchgwyn.
Of the children, Simon, Gabriel and Margaret came to Penrhiwceiber, Mountain Ash, Glamorgan, South Wales, where my grandfather Gabriel was born in 1894.
It was through a 1901 census search for my grandfather Gabriel in Penrhiwceiber, that I became aware of another child named Gabriel, born about 1893 in Penrhiwceiber. Gabriel's father, Robert, gives his birthplace as Minera, “Manera” as it says on the return. The family were also present in Penrhiwceiber at the time of the 1891 census.
I had always wondered about possible connections with this family but it was only recently that I sent off for the record of Robert’s marriage in 1886 to Catherine Jones. This shows that Robert Jones, aged 23, was the son of Simon Jones (deceased). Also, a witness at the wedding - which took place at the Register Office, Pontypridd - was Simon Jones. Residence of both Robert and Catherine is simply shown as Penrhiwceiber.
Clearly, this isn’t enough to say categorically that this is another child of Simon Jones and Catherine Owens but it at least points in that direction. I have tried following it up with the 1922 death certificate for Robert, hoping for a definitive link with a known member of the family, but this was inconclusive as his son Gabriel was the informant. One minor point of interest is that Robert’s residence at time of death is the same as that of Margaret Roberts (nee Jones) a year earlier.
It is all speculative but, perhaps, worth adding in the context of this thread, which has expanded to take in so much of the Jones’s family history than I ever would have imagined.
Dave
Census references for Robert Jones 1863/4 - 1922
1891 census - 27 Glanlay Street, Penrhiwceiber RG 12 Piece 4415 Folio 034 Sched 085 Robert Jones, head, mar, 28, Coal miner, Wrexham, Denbighshire Catherine Jones, wife, m, 23, Porthmadog, Carnarvon Catherine E Jones, dau, 4, scholar, Penrhiwceiber, Glamorgan Priscilla Jones, dau, 2, Margaret Mary Jones, dau, 1, Laura Jones, dau, 1 month,
1901 census - 1a, Railway Terrace, Penrhiwceiber RG 13 Piece 5004 Folio ... Page 40 Robert Jones, head, widr, 37, Coal hewer, Minera, Denbighshire Laura Jones, sister in law, 27, ??, Merionethshire Gabriel Jones, son, 8, Penrhiwceiber, Glamorgan Hannah Jones, dau, 5, Jane Jones, dau, 3, Isaac Osborne, boarder, mar, 50, Colliery fitter, Bristol, Gloucester
Robert's wife Catherine died in 1897, Robert in 1922. A headstone exists at Aberffrwd Cemetery, Mountain Ash.
I will also add in this 1881 census ref. Hannah Jones is the widowed sister-in-law of Simon Jones 1827-1868. That the Robert Jones boarding with her is the same person who came to Penrhiwceiber is unknowable.
1881 census - Pentre Bais, Minera RG 11 Piece 5517 Folio 99 Page 24 Hannah Jones, head, widow, 47, Dolgelly Robert Jones, son, unmar, 24, Lead miner, Minera, Denbighshire William Jones, son, unmar, 11, scholar Sarah Jones, dau, unmar, 9, scholar Hannah Jones, dau, unmar, 6, scholar Robert Jones, boarder, unmar, 18, Quarryman
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Post by colcon on Sept 4, 2008 14:10:04 GMT
To: Dave Jones From: A distant relative While browsing at random recently through the Minera Ancestry Board my attention was drawn to some names of people and places which seemed familiar on this particular "thread" which you started two years ago and revived recently.
Of particular interest concerning my own ancestry are the names Bryn yr ogof, Llanarmon yn I al and Thomas & Catherine Jones and their twelve children. As with you, Thomas & Catherine Jones were also my greatX4 grandparents with their son Evan(1785-1863, my greatX3 gf) being the twin brother of Gabriel, your greatX3 gf. This therefore makes 5th cousins.
More will follow later about the Llanarmon Joneses. Here I will refer to Caroline Burton, later Jones, your great grandmother and first wife of Simon Jones(junior).
Reply 5 dated 31 Aug 2006 indicates that Caroline Burton of Gors, Minera was the daughter of Robert Burton, miner. He would have been a lead miner and not a coal miner.
In case you did not already know, there was a well-known Burton family connected with the history of Minera. You may wish to establish if Caroline and her father were relatedin any way to these other Minera Burtons.
Burton
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Post by cyngorra on Sept 6, 2008 6:39:16 GMT
Hi, colcon,
Interesting comments - I'm pleased you found the thread and chose to post.
I am, of course, interested in your link being through Evan Jones, the twin brother of Gabriel, children of Thomas and Catherine Jones. I had made an attempt to locate Evan Jones going forward but failed, only locating brother Simon Jones and Hugh Jones, noting along the way the references to Bryn yr ogof, a line of enquiry also followed by Clare in her research into the family of Thomas and Catherine.
Much of the information I gathered at that time has been placed on this thread. I think the only thing missing - because it lacked helpful information - is a lease for Bryn yr ogof which I obtained from the Archive Office at Ruthin. It dated from the 1900s, I think, sometime later than the 1901 census.
As to the Burtons, Caroline's parents, Robert a leadminer, followed my great grandfather Simon Jones to Llanrwst where Caroline died in 1885. Simon came to Penrhiwceiber, married Ann Richards, and it is she who gave birth to my grandfather Gabriel Jones.
Thank you for posting - I look forward to anything you have to say.
Dave
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Post by colcon on Sept 10, 2008 9:05:36 GMT
To: Dave
At the time I was typing in my first Post on Sept 4 the screen went completely blank when I was about half way through my proposed submission and therefore thought it would be necessary to start all over again.
On returning to this thread again I was therefore surprised that the partly done piece had in fact been entered, this in turn leading to your reply.
For the moment therefore I will provide here the rest of the piece concerning the Burtons of Minera.
The Burton family of Minera Hall held lands in several parishes in Denbighshire including Minera, Esclusham Above, Wrexham, Brymbo and Bryneglwys. The Burton dynasty included Robert Burton, John Burton and John Robert Burton.
They had interests in various local businesses, eg John Burton was the proprietor of Pool Park Mine and the Eistddfod Lime Works, Minera. The Burtons also had interests in partnerships with others in several other ventures in the Wrexham area.
One of the Burtons, the Rev. Robert Owen Burton was a Vicar of Minera.
The Burtons built Minera Hall which in recent years has been used for various business purposes. It was up for sale a few years ago, possibly for conversion into a number of flats.
Denbighshire Records Office, Ruthin, have some comprehensive records for the family, eg some solicitors papers 1768 to 1911. For details enter the following in Google Search: Archives Network Wales Wrexham Solicitors MSS.
There could be other details on the DRO website.
Entering in Google Search, for example 1. Burton Minera 2. Minera Hall, etc will lead you to various other references. Also, Wrexham Museum will obviously have some futher details.
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Post by colcon on Sept 11, 2008 11:25:32 GMT
Dave Hello again
To clear up a minor point concerning your family history refer to Reply 48 8 Nov 2006 in which "Annedw" states: 'I also found Gabriel Jones buried in Llanarmon yn Ial on March 16 1869 age 48. His place of abode was Cloddiau duer?? Hope. If he his the same Gabriel as in ....... then he was brought quite a way to be buried in his birthplace ....... '
I say 'minor point' as this Gabriel is not one of your own ancestors but the brother of your greatx3 gf Simon Jones.
This Gabriel's abode in March 1869 would have been Cloddiau Duon/Cloddiauduon.
Cloddiau Duon is in fact situated only about half a mile from the southern boundary of the parish of Llanarmon and only just over 3 miles from the Llanarmon church and village. His birthplace would therefore have been the obvious place for him to be buried.
The ancient parish of Hope was a large parish stretching from almost the Cheshire/Flintshire boundary for some 8 miles in a westerly direction towards the Llandegla Moors.
Cloddiau Duon is situated on the edge of the Llandegla Moors on the west side of the B5430 road from Bwlchgwyn to Llanarmon near the tiny hamlet of Rhydtalog where this road crosses the A5104 Chester to Corwen road.
Your parents would therefore have passed this Cloddiau Duon on their visits to Llanarmon. However, there also used to be another Cloddiau Duon, which is no longer there, on the other side of the road.
Cloddiau Duon is now in the parish of Llanfynydd as also is Glanrafon where Gabriel Jones and his family lived 1861 census. Glanrafon is situated less than a mile to the south of Cloddiau Duon.
I have been unable to trace the Cloddiau Duon abodes in the 1871 census.
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Post by cyngorra on Sept 11, 2008 16:18:56 GMT
Hi, colcon,
I've copied off the information you provided re the Burtons - thank you.
Also, the information on Gabriel Jones, 1822-1869 (prob), is welcome - I am always interested in the immediate family of my "direct line" ancestors. It all helps to build a picture of the family at different points in time.
Best wishes,
Dave
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Post by colcon on Sept 12, 2008 14:12:20 GMT
To: Dave
You are already aware that the Llanarmon yn Ial greatx4 grandmother we have in common died in 1836 and buried in the Llanarmon churchyard: Burial 7 May 1836 Catherine Jones Age: 82 Wife of Thomas Jones Abode: Bryn'r ogof.
Thomas Jones our greatx4 grandfather died in 1838 at the grand old age of 90: Church burials register Burial : 4 December 1838 Thomas Jones Age: 90 Abode: Bryn'r ogof.
The ancient parish of Llanarmon yn Ial was made up of 13 townships including Eryrys/Erryrys, Cyfnant, Gwaunyffynnon, Trellan/Tre'r Llan/Llan and 9 others.
Parts of the Eryrys, Cyfnant and Gwaunyffynnon townships in 1861 formed the new parish of Eryrys and later in 1887 parts of the Llanarmon parish were transferred to the parish of Llandegla.
Bryn yr Ogof was in the part of the township of Eryrys which remained within the Llanarmon parish. To clarify the year of birth of your greatx3 grandfather Simon Jones, he was definitely born in 1785 and not in 1784 as indicated in some places in your thread. Simon and his twin brother Evan(my greatx3 gf) were baptised on 26 September 1785 and it was usual in those days for the children to be baptised very soon, often within days, after they were born.
Additionally, the details in the Parish Church Burials Register for Evan Jones(1785-1863) gives his age as 77 years 5 months at the at the time of his burial on 30 January 1863. Therefore, the twins would have been born in August 1785.
More to follow.
Regards
Your 5th cousin
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Post by cyngorra on Sept 12, 2008 18:15:34 GMT
Hi, colcon,
Very interested in your comments.
The burial record of Thomas Jones of Bryn yr ogof is a fascinating find which gives some indication of when he would have been born. In Llanarmon yn ial? From my old notes from the Llanarmon yn ial transcription I have some possibles, as noted elsewhere on this thread. Knowing his age at burial feeds into that speculation. Something for me to think about.
Also, your find of Evan Jones, twin to Gabriel, is fascinating, though it does highlight one of my concerns regarding "my" Gabriel Jones in relation to Thomas and Catherine Jones. The possible birthdate of Gabriel Jones as 1784 arises from the burial record - which I have only seen in transcription - for LLanarmon yn ial which states that he was buried on 1 May 1837 aged 53.
Now, the given age at Gabriel's burial might be incorrect - I have found death/burial records with ages well out of sync with the correct age - but it appears to be in the record and is not consistent with a birth in 1785 despite the baptism record. Hence my interest in locating a record - a death cert for his widow Margaret for example, the records for Bryn yr ogof - which might add to the probable connection between his family and the Joneses of Bryn yr ogof.
It is all very interesting - a phrase I seem to be over-using but only because it is true.
Regards,
Dave
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Post by colcon on Sept 16, 2008 14:58:17 GMT
To: Dave
Back for the moment from Llanarmon to Minera.
Your Reply 13 of 6 Sept 2006 mentions, in connection with Simon and Catherine(Owens) Jones, among a lot of other details that:
a) their marriage took place at the Wrexham Parish Church on 8 Feb 1848 with both residing at Esclusham Above;
b)1851 census they and 2 year old daughter Jane were at Rhiw Yale, Llanarmon; and
c)you could not find the family on the 1861 census despite page to page searches.
Esclusham Above and Ecsclusham Below, like Minera, were both townships within the ancient parish of Wrexham, and both Esc Above and Esc Below had detached parts in the Minera area. A part of Esc Above plus the detached part and the detached part of Esc Below became a part of Minera parish.
I would imagine that as your Simon Jones senior was a lead miner , he and Catherine 1848 lived in the Minera area near the mountain road leading from Minera and Wern over to World's End , Eglwyseg Mountain and the hamlet of Pentredwr, near Llangollen.
As daughter Jane was born Llanarmon 1848/49, Simon Jones it seems returned to his birhhplace area for 2 or 3 years. Since son Simon was born 1851 in the Minera parish it would also seem Simon and Catherine, with daughter Jane, moved back to the Minera area soon after the April 1851 census.
The reason you could not find the family in the 1861 census is that a large chunk of the details for the Minera census are in fact 'missing'. That is, not included in the microfilmed details with the rest of the Minera parish.
In the 1851, 1861, 1871 etc censuses for the Minera township/ Minera parish the area was divided into 2 Census Enumerators' districts, with the dividing line between these 2 districts being the river Clywedog and one of it's tiny tributaries.
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Post by heaffey on Sept 16, 2008 19:54:04 GMT
With regards to Gabriel if I could just say that the birthdate of Gabriel was probably an error on my behalf as this is what I was origianally told by another member of the large Jones family. She already presumably had the death record showing he died aged 53 and took this away to come up with his birth date of 1785. Later we purchased a copy of the parish registers and as you state both Gabriel and Evan are shown to have been baptised in Sept 1785.
Regards Clare
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