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Post by annedw on Oct 8, 2008 21:34:24 GMT
Just a thought are we wanting to look at Ellin / Eleanor Harnaman or is it just Sarah that your friend is interested in.
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Post by gogs on Oct 8, 2008 21:38:15 GMT
Harriet Davies nee Bellis died in 1898. Can't find John in 1901, (unless he is a stone mason in Tryddin,Flintshire.) but in 1906 he married again in Wigan,Lancs. She in turn died in1908 and he married again in Wigan in 1911. Not bad going What ?? He reputedly walked from North Wales to Wigan
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Post by gogs on Oct 8, 2008 21:41:18 GMT
HI AGAIN, my friend is interested in the marriage of Robert to Sarah ? Sometime between 1875-1881. Ellen/Ellin died in 1875 and was buried in Llandegla 1st May 1875
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Post by annedw on Oct 9, 2008 6:03:58 GMT
Gogs, just to say that all this info needs to be verified and backed up with relevant certificates. There should be more than one source of information according to all family history researchers. Thats why, as Eluned said in the beginning, it isn`t easy and can take years.
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Post by gogs on Oct 9, 2008 9:50:19 GMT
Many many thanks to all. You are doing a splendid job. Going down to Hawarden next week to check their records. Plenty to look for. Thanks again Gogs
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Post by gogs on Oct 9, 2008 11:56:39 GMT
Well done sceptrelady. Nice coincidence at Eisteddfod cottages. I will check out the marriage of Robert and Sarah Jones. Sarah WAS from Llanderfel.
I've printed all these answers and will take them to Hawarden next week
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Post by colcon on Oct 10, 2008 8:44:54 GMT
To: Gogs
Can you clarify whether the friend for whom you are making enquiries is a descendant: (i) of John, son of Robert Davies and his first wife Ellen/Ellin Ann (Harnaman) or (ii) of Annie, Jane or Miriam, daughters of Robert and his second wife Sarah (........). If one of the daughters, which one?
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Post by gogs on Oct 10, 2008 9:47:49 GMT
Hi colcon, my friend is Trevor Davies and is descended from John son of Robert. The line goes......... John-Robert-John-John-Trevor
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Post by colcon on Oct 11, 2008 9:29:12 GMT
To: gogs
Thanks for the information that your friend Trevor Davies is a descendant (a great grandson) of Robert Davies and his first wife Ellin (Harnaman). This obviously makes it much easier to research as Harnaman is such an uncommon name in the area.
As it happens I already had some information (in connection with another matter) concerning a James Harnaman who I am sure is a brother of Joseph, Ellin's father.
At the time of both the 1861 Census and the 1871 Census James Harnaman was a police constable at Llandegla; by 1881 he had moved to Colwyn Bay. His wife Ann died 19 August 1888 age 60 and James Harnaman died 27 April 1910 age 88.
Although they had moved some distance away well before Ann died in 1888 (1891 Census: James still at Colwyn Bay) they are buried in the Llandegla Churchyard. I made a note from the Monumental Inscription some years ago of only the basic details as above. Possibly they are buried in the same grave as their niece Ellin who you have indicated is buried at Llandegla. If you and Trevor Davies also intend to visit Llandegla at the same time as the visit to Gwynfryn, you will see James and Ann's grave immediately to the right of the War Memorial as you look at it from the road/square.
Tan y Bryn, where Robert and Ellin's son John was born, is near the cemetery of Pisgah Chapel. Joseph and James Harnaman's mother Mary Jane was born in the Isle of Man - that's a nice trip for some local research. Their father William Harnaman (Trevor Davies' greatx3 grandfather) was born in Somerset. More about them, Joseph and Ellin to follow.
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Post by annedw on Oct 11, 2008 11:29:05 GMT
In 1891 Miriam aged 4 is with Robert and Sarah. I searched for her with parents in 1901 but it looks like she is away from home. There`s no other near match for age and pob.
1901 59 Salop Road Wrexham George Henry Williams 26 bankclerk b Beaumaris Anglesey Emma Louisa wife 26 b Cardiff Miriam Davies servant 14 domestic housemaid b Minera.
Now you can see why I said about young people not being at home in the search for Robert.
Not sure if this was posted before , but I can`t find it now, looks like Jane d/o Sarah and Robert
1901 Eisteddfod Minera William Roberts widower 64 Rockman stone lime b Llanelidan Ruthin Thomas son marr 36 ditto ditto Mary M wife 31 b Corwen John W son 4 b Minera Jane Davies visitor unm 17 b Minera
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Post by gogs on Oct 11, 2008 14:39:34 GMT
Thanks for that annedw Interesting stuff. Some one else found Jane at Eistedffod. Miriam........ second account of her being in Wrexham.
Thanks also to colcon. Will certainly have a look at graveyard on our next visit. Hopefully next week.
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Post by abeer on Oct 11, 2008 22:43:54 GMT
Parich Church I think
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Post by colcon on Oct 13, 2008 11:32:41 GMT
To: gogs
Eureka! Found John Davies 1901 Census
He was with a boarder with a family named Dean at 5 Bridge Steet, Southsea(Bersham parish),near Wrexam.
John Davies Widower 27 Colliery labourer B: Llandegla
Concerning Ellen/Ellin/Eleanor's greatx3 grandmother (Joseph Harnaman's mother), her name was Mary Anne and not Mary Jane as incorrectly given in my Reply 41.
I have more than enough information for you concening the Harnamans so there is no need for your other 'helpers' to do anything about them.
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Post by annedw on Oct 13, 2008 13:09:47 GMT
Colcon wrote I have more than enough information for you concening the Harnamans so there is no need for your other 'helpers' to do anything about them. Maybe you would like to start another thread titled Harnaman with all the info you have on the family, there may be other descendants out there, and they could miss it all in a thread titled Davies of Minera.. Another thing, at her marriage Ellin /Eleanor states her father is Parish Clerk, In 1871 Brynnllan Clocaenog,( next to parish Church. Joseph Harnaman 47 Gardener b Ruthin. + family including Eleanor 17 b New Brighton Cheshire. Was she `gilding the lily` a little , or had Joseph changed occupations.
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Post by colcon on Oct 13, 2008 15:27:50 GMT
To: gogs
Reply 31 indicates that the witnesses at the marriage of John Davies (Trevor Davies' grandfather) and Harriet Ann Bellis were Robert Bellis and Susannah Cartwright .
Robert and Susannah married in 1896 and their first child, Edward William Bellis, was killed in France during the First World War in 1915 aged only 18.
Details are available on one of the other threads on the Minera Message Boards : CWGC Remembrance links ......
Susannah Cartwright/Bellis was my Bwlchgwyn grandmother's first cousin.
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Post by gogs on Oct 13, 2008 22:57:09 GMT
To colcon,
Great work with the Harnamans but I think Trevor wants to concentrate on the Davies side for the moment. I will carry on with the Harnaman side though and I am alittle confused when you mention Ellin/Eleanor. I only have Ellen/Ellin Ann Harnaman. Are we on the same person?
Superb work with finding John Davies in Wrexham. I searched but couldn't find him. He married in Wigan in 1906 and I believe walked here !!
You're doing a great job. Thank you ever so much.
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Post by annedw on Oct 14, 2008 6:14:05 GMT
1861 has Ellin 7 d/o Joseph and Anne Harnaman..Clocaenog. 1871 has Eleanor 17 d/o Joseph and Anne Harnaman. Clocaenog. I`ts written that way on the original page . Same girl / different version of her name. This is the birth registration, so looks like the 1871 enumerater got it wrong. Another example of misleading information that we take for being correct - but often wrong. Ellen Ann Harnaman 1853 Jun qtr Wirral Cheshire
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Post by eluned on Oct 14, 2008 14:42:51 GMT
My ancestor Eleanor nee Jones also used various spellings of her name ie.Ellen/Ellenor/Ellinor. I guess that this was a regular occurence. If she was English, she may have also used the pet name Nellie
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Post by colcon on Oct 14, 2008 17:35:11 GMT
To gogs
A minor correction. In Reply 45 the sentence should have started: He was a boarder with ......
I quite understand the confusion concerning E....Harnaman/Davies.I've had the same problem with a great grandmother of same name and from the same area . Sometimes Elinor and sometimes Ellen and finally Eleanor(newspaper obituary).
Trevor Davies' great grandmother: Birth reg(1853) Ellen Ann Harnaman 1861 census Ellin 1871 census Eleanor Marriage reg(1873) Ellen Anne Death reg(1875) Eleanor Davies
Note that : 1853 Ann and 1873 Anne
If a birth certificate is needed the application should be made (quoting Ref No WAL/7/62) to The Superintendent Registrar at Birkenhead. If a death cerificate is needed the application should be made (quoting Ref No ARMON/05/46) to the Superintendent Registrar at Ruthin.
I note that your friend Trevor wants to concentrate on the Davies side for the moment. Over the next few weeks I will be visiting the Ruthin area and spending some time at the Records Office. This will give me an opportunity to look up the parish reecords for both Clocaenog and Llanfwrog, etc. There is, fortunately, only one cemetery (the Churchyard) in Clocaenog and therefore the Harnamans details should be in the parish registers.
And finally for the moment. In the 1851 census one of Ellen's aunties (farther's sister) was a servant (one of 3 female servants) with a family in Liverpool consisting of only the parents and one daughter. Both Mr & Mrs Roberts were from Ruthin and his occupation was ' Tripe Dealer'. I think I've been in the wrong job!
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Post by gogs on Oct 14, 2008 18:50:16 GMT
To colcon,
Many, many thanks ,colcon.
I will continue the Harnaman line even if Trevor is for the moment obsessed with Davies. Understandably so.!! However I believe you should collect as much as you can about ALL the family. For the moment the accent is on Davies and we are going to Hawarden tomorrow (wednesday) to search the records there. I personally would have chosen Ruthin but he has been to Hawarden before and feels comfortable there and says they were very helpful. So we'll see. We are also hoping to get down to Llandegla/Minera/PentreBais for a look round for graves and possibly Eistedffod Cottage site. This is NOT my family but it is very fascinating work and I love it. Fortunately I have the time and a computer so that helps. I've printed off all the info I have got from this brilliant site and will take it along tomorrow. With the reference numbers etc I have given it should make life a little easier tomorrow.
I'll get back to you with a report either tomorrow or Thursday.
Thanks again
Gordon
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Post by gogs on Oct 15, 2008 22:23:17 GMT
Hi All, Been today to Hawarden and found Robert Davies family in Llanyrnog. John and Anne Davies. John being a labourer as stated on Robert's marriage document. The only other choice was a shoemaker who is definitely not a labourer. Been also to Llandegla and found the Harnaman grave at St Tegla's Church. Also found the house Tany Bryn where John Davies was born. Went to Minera also but ran out of time trying to find Eistedffod Cottage.
But a good and profitable day.
Bye for now
Gordon
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Post by colcon on Oct 16, 2008 10:28:57 GMT
Hello, Gordon
As I do not have have a computer at home (using the computers at my local library which fortunately is located in the next street from where I live), I did not see your Reply 51 until yesterday morning.
It had been my intention yesterday to send you more about the Eisteddfod Farm/Cottages before your planned visit but by then to late. From your feedback last night it would not have mattered anyway. I will come back to you about this and other matters shortly. In the meantime here is something else entirely different concerning Pentre Bais/Gwynfryn.
As for John Davies walking all the way to Wigan, that was a long way for him to escape from the notorius ladies of Pentre Bais. Here is a quotation about them (in the second half of the 19th century) from the Wrexham Leader (19 October 1980): '........ Another story that I have heard is that at one time men from a distance, employed in the quarries, lodged during the week in the village and always found solace in the village in the cottages of ladies of lax morals until they went home for the week-end .....'
This article consists mainly of details gleaned from the booklet 'The Story of Gwynfryn' published in 1980 by (I trust) the more respectable ladies of the Gwynfryn Women's Institute. The booklet is now I believe out of print but it might by possible (subject to copyrights) to obtain a photocopy (only 13 A5 pages including the covers) from somewhere, eg the Wrexham Museum.
A few years later, at the time of the WI's 100 years anniversary, the Gwynfryn WI were winners or at least very highly placed in a WI national competition for their entry about the village. A copy has been deposited at the Ruthin Records Office under the title 'Gwynfryn WI Then and Now Scapbook'. Otherwise it might be possible for you to obtain a copy on loan from someone of one the very limited number of copies that were made available. Anyone out there with a rare copy?
Regards colcon (which really has nothing to do with my name)
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Post by gogs on Oct 16, 2008 12:19:25 GMT
Thanks for that colcon, Notorious lot weren't they. He was actually married when living in Pentre Bias ( at least initailly, until Harriet died )so maybe wasn't tempted. Looking at Google Maps of Minera I find Allt Eistedffod and Ffordd Eistedfford continuing on from Ffordd Isaf. Is this where the cottages would have been ??
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Post by annedw on Oct 18, 2008 7:54:24 GMT
Hi All, Been today to Hawarden and found Robert Davies family in Llanyrnog. John and Anne Davies. John being a labourer as stated on Robert's marriage document. Gordon Do you know now when Robert was born , we might be able to trace him in the census
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Post by gogs on Oct 18, 2008 9:43:32 GMT
Hi annedw, I reckon Robert was born in1845 in Llandyrnog. I have a church record of baptism of Robert Davies son of John and Anne from Pont-horn,Llandyrnog . Baptised 21st Sep. 1845.
I have found the family in 1851 census as:- John aged 38 (agricultural labourer) Born Llandyrnog Anne aged 25 Born Denbigh Thomas aged 7 Born Llandyrnog Robert aged 4 " Mary aged 1 "
All living at Pont-horn
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Post by colcon on Oct 18, 2008 10:01:37 GMT
Hello Gordon (and also annedw, eluned and sceptrelady)
The 3 no doubt very respectable ladies on the 'Minera Message Board' who have been helping you with your researches have already provided you with details 1901 census concering 2 of the 3 Minera-born half-sisters of the Llandegla-born John Davies.
That is, a) Jane Davies, age 17, a visitor in a household at Eisteddfod, Pentre Bais, and b) Miriam, age 14, a domestic servant in Wrexham.
I am pretty sure that I have tracked down the other one of John Davies' half-sisters in 1901. The same problem with the name as with Ellen/Ellin etc. Her proper name appears to have been Ann and not Annie (or Anne). She was a domestic servant with a family at Clement House, Buckley Road, Wrexham (parish: Wrexham Regis).
David Morris Head 31 Bankers' Clerk B: Bootle,Lancs Gwladys " Wife 27 B:Holywell,Flints David Oliver " Son 1 " " Ann Davies Serv Single 21 Servant Domestic B:Minera,Denbs
I have also searched for the births and marriages details in North Wales Births/Marriages/Deaths (www.northwalesbmd.org.uk or you can click for it on Minera Resources):
a) Miriam, based on age 14 1901, was born in 1886/87. There is only one Miriam Davies for 1886 in Wrexham District/Wrexham sub-district which includes Minera (Wrexham RO Ref WM/072/87) plus another in 1888(ref WM/077/098). None for 1887.
b) Jane, based on age 17 in 1901 was born in 1883/84. There are 2 Jane Davies Wrexham sub-district in 1883 ( Refs WM/065/66 and WM/066/45). All the Jane Davies born 1884 this sub- district also have another name as also did another 1883 Jane.
c) Ann/Annie/Anne, based on Annie age 2 1881 and age 11 in 1891 she was born in1887/88/89. No Anne Davies born Wrexham sub-district these years and only one Annie(1878) but she had a Jane second name.
There is only one Ann Davies for years 1877/78/79 in Wrexham sub-district and that is in 1879 (Ref WM/057/2). This one therefore likely to be the other sister.
Marriage details to follow.
which includes Minera (Wrexham RO Ref WM/072/87)
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Post by annedw on Oct 18, 2008 20:57:08 GMT
She was a domestic servant with a family at Clement House, Buckley Road, Wrexham (parish: Wrexham Regis). As I live locally, Buckley Road isn`t a name I`ve heard of, on checking it`s Beechley Road, I know it well , in the Hightown area of Wrexham.
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Post by colcon on Oct 20, 2008 9:00:24 GMT
Hello again
In Reply 26 'annedw' mentions that in 1871 census Ellen's father Joseph Harnaman was a Gardener but that at her marriage 1873 he was a Parish Clerk. She wonders if Joseph had changed occupations or was 'gilding the lily'.
In the various censuses, Joseph's occupation: 1851 Gardener, 1861 Gardener, Domestic, 1871 Gardener, and 1881 Parish Clerk: Gardener. He died shortly before the next census and his widow Anne died soon after the 1891 census.
Joseph's father William Harnaman was a gardener 1851 at Llanfwrog, Ruthin (or at least living in Llanfwrog) as also was Joseph's brother James before he became a long-serving police constable. He was a PC from the mid-1850s and in 1891 at age 69 he was still a PC (retired by 1901 census). How things have changed; these days he would probably have retired by age 49.
Being a parish clerk would of course have been a minor 'occupation' (probably with a nominal salary). Possibly Joseph H might also have been one of the Census Enumerators for the Clocaenog parish. The writing in the 1861 and 1871 censuses for the Tre'r Llan township where he lived is the same but different in 1891 census by which time he had died. Or possibly he may have been a CE for one of the other Clocaenog townships.
It would be pleasing to find examples of the writing of Trevor Davies' greatX2 grandfather. Next time at the Ruthin RO I will check the explanatory in the Clocaenog census details to see if the names of the Enumerators are given.
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Post by gogs on Oct 20, 2008 9:41:57 GMT
Hi colcon, What a brilliant job with the Harnamans. Superb !!! Gardeners all eh? No PC at home ?? Wonderful !! Nice work with Ann Davies also.. In your last post you mentioned "marriage to follow" was that Ann's ??
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Post by colcon on Oct 20, 2008 10:30:00 GMT
Back again
Glad to see that you found the Llandyrnog details for Robert and his parents, ie the 1851 census (Robert age 4) and the 1845 baptism. You say: 'I reckon Robert was born in 1845 ...... Baptisms 21st Sep 1845'. Most baptisms then took place quite soon after the child was born, sometimes within days. The difficulties arising from the conflicting details cropping up with ages in the census returns (eg 8 in 1861, 19 in1871, 27 in 1981,etc) has already started with Robert in the 1851 census. His age in the 1851 census should have been given as 5 and not 4.
At the date of his marriage 6 Aug 1873 his age would not have been 25 as given but either 27 or alternatively 28 (if he had been born on or before 6 Aug 1873).
Reply 10 gives his age as 29 in the 1881 census which was very wide of the mark as he would have been 35; for 1891 Reply 5 gives an age of 43 when he would have been 45 (getting closer this time).
All these variations in ages do not of course help you with identifying him correctly in the 1861 and 1871 census. Even if you get a copy of his birth certificate showing his date of birth this would not really help you trace him in the other censuses.
Does Trevor Davies have any idea a) when and where his great grandfather died, and b) where buried. If no knowledge of b) having the answer to a) might help in tracking down his possible burial place. He might possibly have moved away from the Minera area.
I have searched in vain in 1901 census for both Robert Davies and his second wife Sarah Davies. Robert may well have died between the 1891 and 1901 census, and the same with Sarah.
I have found some potential deaths between these dates for Robert but none for Sarah in which case, if he had died before the 1901 census, Sarah may have married again ( by 1898 she would have been age around 44) and with a different surname in 1901 census.
To be contiuned
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