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Post by colcon on Nov 10, 2008 10:36:13 GMT
Hello Gordon
Davies family, Llandyrnog parish, Denbigh
Concerning Robert Davies' parents John & Anne Davies (Pont-horn, Llandyrnog parish 1851 and 1861 censuses) I mentioned:
a) in Reply 97(old)/94(new)(31 Oct) that at that time I had not found them in the 1871 census and that they were not then at Pont-horn(uninhabited 1871); and
b) in Reply 115(5 Nov) I suggested that Pont-horn may have fallen into disuse but with the possibility that the Davieses may have moved to 'Coach House' on the Ystrad Hall/Farm estate.
A tragic tale to report I'm afraid. Both John Davies and Anne Davies had died at Pont-horn within 17 days of each other in December 1961.
And it gets worse. Two of their daughters (ie Robert's sisters) had also died there earlier in the same year: Anne in June 1861 (she was not however at Pont-horn in the 1861 census); and Mary (the second of their daughters with this name) in October 1861(Mary - age 1 in 1851 census and age 11 in 1861 census). The first Mary had died there age 8 months in 1849.
You had already found Robert Davies' 21 September 1845 Llandyrnog baptism and, as I mentioned in Reply 96(old)/93(new)(31 Oct), Robert's parents were married in the Llandyrnog Parish Church in 1842 and that his mother Anne already had the Davies surname before her marriage.
Details are given below of the main details for the family from the Llandyrnog parish registers.
LLANDYRNOG PARISH REGISTERS
MARRIAGES REGISTER Marriage 1842 John Davies & Anne Davies 28 May 1842 John Davies Full age Bachelor Labourer Pen y waun Father:Robert Davies Labourer Anne Davies Full age Spinster Servant Pont horn Father:Henry Davies Labourer
BAPTISMS REGISTER Baptisms: 6 (of 7) of John & Anne Davies' known children a) 22 May 1843 Thomas b) 21 September 1845 Robert c)26 April 1848 Mary (died 1849) d) 24 February 1850 Mary (died 1861) (Anne: born 1851/52 died age 9 1861 - not listed in the Baptisms Register) e) 11 May 1855 Henry - this Henry must have died before another son also named Henry was born in 1858 f) 9 May 1858 Henry
Abodes: all above baptisms - Pont-horn/Pont horn John Davies' trade/profession: all above - Labourer
MARRIAGES REGISTER Children of John & Anne Davies None found in the Llandyrnog register (Son Robert Davies married Ellen Anne Harnaman Clocaenog 1873 but the fact that John Davies was 'deceased' is not indicated in the Clocaenog marriages register)
BURIALS REGISTER Burials: John Davies (1861 ) & Anne Davies (1861) 9 December 1861 John Davies Pont-horn Age: 57 26 December 1861 Anne Davies Pont-horn Age : 48
BURIALS REGISTER 3 of John & Anne Davies' 7 known children 19 Jan 1849 Mary Davies Pont horn Age: 8 months 22 June 1861 Anne Davies Pont-horn Age: 9 years 29 October 1861 Mary Davies Pont-horn Age: 12years
Also BURIALS REGISTER 7 February 1849 David Davies Pont horn Age: 79 years (This David Davies, born around 1769/70, could possibly be the grandfather of either John Davies or Anne Davies, Pont horn) ....................................... There should be some other details in the Llandyrnog baptisms, marriages and burials registers relating to the Davies families. For example, Anne Davies' and/or John Davies' baptisms, their parents baptisms/marriages/burials, etc. However I have not searched the registers prior the 1842 marriage.
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Post by gogs on Nov 10, 2008 11:23:44 GMT
colcon, You are so good. I don't know how you do it !! Thank you for all those facts............ I am sure Trevor will be very pleased. I am seeing him in an hour or so and will pass them on
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Post by colcon on Nov 11, 2008 11:53:44 GMT
Hello Gordon
Continuation - Davies family, Llandyrnog parish, Denbigh
I may have commented before that this thread of yours seems to have a mind of its own.
Some of the reply numbers have changed yet again. Yesterday when I logged on to post Reply Nov 10 10.36am I expected it to be Reply 122 and the third on new 'Page 5 of 5'. By the time it had been posted the other 2 posts on 'Page 5 of 5'(numbers 120 and 121) were on 'Page 4 of 5' and renumbered 118 and 119!
This renumbering plays havoc with my efforts to help you identify earlier posts (ie, concerning specific matters). Therefore, from now on I propose to use the date and then the time.
Now back to the 'Llandyrnog Davieses'. I will come back later specifically concerning the Pont Horn, Coach House, the Ystrad premises, etc.
In my reply Nov 10 10.36am I have referred to John & Anne Davies' '7 known children' and the baptism of '6 of 7' of their known children. They did in fact have 7 children excluding Anne.
Anne (died 1861 age 9 - June burial as listed) might not have been one of their children but possibly (as she is not listed in the baptisms register) a relative, eg a niece. A quick search for her in the 1861 census has proved negative.
Of the '7' the two 'Marys' died young - one in 1849 and the other in October 1861.
As for the Henry 1855 baptism, the date should have been 11 March (not May) 1855 and he had not died before 1855-1858 as surmised. He was very much alive in 1861 and in 1871.
Henry (age 6) 1861 census at Pont-horn (see Reply Oct 31 2.24pm) with his parents, sister Mary (age 11 - the one that died later that year), Jane (8), Henry (6) and George (3).
1871 census - Henry a printer's apprentice at Corwen; part details as follows: John Davies Head 31 Printer employing 1 man and 1 boy Born: DEN Ruthin plus his wife and a boarder and - Henry Davies Apprentice 15 Printer's apprentice Born: DEN Llangynhafal
John & Anne Davies' eldest son Thomas (May 1843 baptism; age 7 1851 census Pont-horn) in the 1861 census was a servant at the 'Parsonage' in the neighbouring parish of Llangynhafal. Part of the census details as follows: Robert Ll A Roberts Head 62 Rector of Llangynhafal Bo: DEN Llanrhaiadr plus his wife + 1 son + 1 daughter + 2 female servants and 2 male servants, one of which - Thomas Davies Servant 16 Boy of all work Bo: DEN Llandyrnog (Boy of all work! I can sympathise with him this very moment.)
More on this to follow.
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Post by gogs on Nov 11, 2008 14:59:41 GMT
Hi colcon, I know better than to question you, but, Henry 1871 (printers apprentice) census born Llangynhafal ??
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Post by colcon on Nov 12, 2008 10:10:44 GMT
Hello Gordon
Continuation of Reply Nov 8 11.25am - Clocaenog parish registers.
During my recent visit to Clocaenog I could not find the grave of Joseph and Anne Harnaman. That's because of the usual problems with old churchyards and other cemeteries - gravestones removed, the inscriptions on the gravestones having disappeared due to weathering, level headstones now covered with soil and grass,etc.
However, I did find the grave of 2 of their children: a) James (William James in the births & baptisms registers - the one born at Magozines, New Brighton) and b) their married daughter Sarah Jones (Sarah Alice Harnaman). Further details later.
As well as the marriage of Ellen Anne Harnaman and Robert Davies in 1873, 3 of Joseph & Anne Harnaman's children were also married in the Clocaenog Parish Church.
One of their sons, Joseph Harnaman (Joseph Lewis in the births & baptisms registers) married Elizabeth Evans in 1886(July-Sept) at the Denbigh Parish Church(St. Mary) but I have not as yet looked up the relevant parish register. (In North Wales BMD & FreeBMD only '2 names on page' for this one instead of the more usual '4 names on page'. Therefore, no problem with working out who may have married who. If only they were all like this!)
CLOCAENOG PARISH REGISTERS MARRIAGES REGISTER Marriages: 4 daughters of Joseph & Anne Harnaman
6 August 1873 Robert Davies & Ellen Anne Harnaman - see Reply Nov 8 11.25am
9 October 1886 Cadwaladr Evans 22 Bachelor Tailor Cyffylliog Parish Father: Evan Evans Labourer Elizabeth Harnaman 24 Spinster Clocaenog Father: Joseph Harnaman Labourer
17 Sebtember 1892 Rice Jones 30 Bachelor Farmer Plaslello(Derwen Parish) Father: William Jones Farmer Sarah Harnaman 24 Spinster Post Office Clocaenog Father: Joseph Harnaman Labourer
17 December 1892 Edward Roberts 23 Bachelor Blacksmith Derwen Parish Father Edward Roberts Trade/profession ? Annie Harnaman 28 Spinster Post Office Clocaenog Father: Joseph Harnaman Labourer (Annie - Anne Maria in births & baptisms registers)
(Joseph Harnaman had died prior to the 2 1892 marriages but the fact that he was 'deceased' is not indicated in the marriages details.)
More to follow,particularly the details from the burials register.
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Post by colcon on Nov 12, 2008 12:54:24 GMT
Hello Gordon
Clocaenog parish registers - continuation of Reply Nov 8 11.25am and Reply Nov 13 10.10am
CLOCAENOG PARISH REGISTERS BURIALS REGISTER
BURIALS: Joseph Harnaman 1891 & Anne/Ann Harnaman 1891 6 March1891 Joseph Harnaman Abode: Church House, Clocaenog Age: 65 years (A note under his name in Register: Clerk of Parish for 33 years)
15 June 1891 Ann Harnaman Abode: Clocaenog Village Age: 65 years
BURIALS: Five of Joseph & Anne/Ann Harnaman's children
a) 20 July 1849 Maria Harnaman Abode: Clawddnewydd(Derwen Parish) Age: 6 weeks
b) 4 July 1862 Elizabeth Harnaman Abode: Ty coch bach Age: 1 year 1 month
c) 26 September 1874 Hannah Harnaman Abode:Brynllan Age: 23 years
d) 23 July 1879 James Harnaman Abode: Church House in the Village Age: 33 years
e) Sarah Jones - Died 23 September 1898 aged 29 years; see details from the Monumental Inscription in Churchyard: Translation below of the headstone MI -
In loving memory of James son of Joseph and Anne Harnaman Post Office Who died July 20 1889 aged 33 And also their daughter Sarah Wife of Price Jones Tyddyn Llan Derwen Who died September 23 1898 aged 29
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Post by gogs on Nov 12, 2008 14:30:23 GMT
Hi colcon, Sorry to query you again but, in Reply 124 today you give Elizabeth Harnamn as being married in Oct 1886. In reply 125 today you give Elizabeth Harnaman buried 1n 1862 aged 1 year 1month.. Were there 2 of them ?
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Post by gogs on Nov 12, 2008 14:36:53 GMT
Hi again colcon, Another anomaly !! William James Harnaman you gave as born Magozine 1856. But in reply 125 you give him buried on 23 July 1879 aged 33 ??
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Post by colcon on Nov 14, 2008 13:26:01 GMT
Hello Gordon
Ystrad(Denbigh), Pont-horn(Llandyrnog) and Berth(Llanbedr)
On my recent visits to the Ruthin area I made a slight detour to the 'Ystrad' area, Denbigh.
This area is situated only about 1 mile from the Denbigh town centre, about 1.5 miles from the centre of the village of Llanrhaeadr and some 5 miles from the village of Llandyrnog.
During that visit I found Ystrad Hall and several other impressive residences down one lane off the Denbigh-Llanrhaeadr road. Down another lane is Ystrad House and some other residences also with the prefix 'Ystrad'. Ystrad House appears to have been the old farmhouse with some outbuildings having been converted for residential use. The present day Ystrad Hall is a huge stone-built residence which would have been built on the site of the demolished old hall.
On that occasion I did not locate Pont Horn or Coach house which I assumed were down another lane off the Denbigh-Llanrhaeadr road.
It did not appear to make any sense to me that the Davies family would make the the long and tortuous journey of some 5/6 miles each way for baptisms/marriages/burials at the Llandyrnog parish church when the Denbigh parish church is only about one mile from the Ystrad area and the Llanrhaeadr church less than 2 miles away.
All has now been solved. Pont Horn and Coach House (referred to in my Reply Nov 5. 5.00pm) are not at all situated in the Denbigh Ystrad area but are located only about one mile to the north of the Llandyrnog village centre and the parish church! That is, some 5 miles to the east of 'Ystrad'.
All the cause for this confusion lies with 'Ancestry'. In the 'search result index' for the Williams family , 'Ancestry' indicates quite clearly that 'Ystrad' is/was in the Llandyrnog parish. This area is however some 3 miles outside the Llandyrnog parish boundary at the nearest point.
Part details for the 'Ystrad' 1851 census are repeated here:
William Williams Head 49 Farmer of 312 acres employing 10 labourers Born: Anglesey Mary Ann Williams Wife 48 Born: Somerset,Nailsea John Williams Son 19 Farmer's son Born: Anglesey, Beaumaris (plus 8 living in servants)
You will recall that young Robert Davies 1861 census was a servant (groom) with Mary Anne Williams at Berth, Llanbedr, Ruthin.
Pont Horn and Coach House, Llandyrnog are in the same area as Glan-y-Wern Hall and Glan-y-Wern Farm and 5 other places named in the postal codes directory with the prefix 'Glan-y-Wern...' or 'Glanywern..'. Glan-y-Wern Farm is not listed in the postal codes directory but is clearly identifiable on present day Ordnance Survey maps.
At 'Glanywern Farm' Llandyrnog 1861 census was John M Williams (age 30). Part census details as follows:
John M Williams Head Unmarried 30 Farmer 262 acres employing 5(?) labourers and 4 boys Born Anglesey, Beaumaris.
This John M Williams is of course none other than the son of William Williams (Ystrad 1851) and Mary Anne Williams (Ystrad 1851 & Berth, Llanbedr 1861).
Robert ' father John Davies, Pont-horn could have been a 'Coach Man' at 'Glanywern Farm' or possibly at 'Glanywern Hall' and could have been a labourer at times at either or both of these places.
Nearby at the present time also is 'Pen y Waen'. The marriages register indicates that John Davies' residence at the time of marriage (1842) was 'Pen y waun', Llandyrnog (my Reply Nov 10 10.36am refers) with Pont-horn then being Anne Davies' residence.
On Google Maps you can readily locate the area by entering the postal code - LL16 4HP- in the search box and then you can zoom in on the area on the 'satellite' link.
On Ordnance Survey maps the 'Glan-y-wern ' area is to the west of the B5429 Llandyrnog to Bodfari road and on the north side of the Denbigh to Llandyrnog road.
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Post by colcon on Nov 15, 2008 11:20:33 GMT
Hello Gordon
To clear up the points raised in 3 of your recent posts.
1) Reply Nov 11 2.59pm concerning Henry 1871 census (printer's apprentice at Corwen) My error in Reply Nov 11 11.53am - lack of co-ordination between brain cell, eyes and typing finger. Census details shows he was born in the Llandyrnog parish. Eyes distracted by the reference to Llangynhafal in the next paragraph.
2) Reply Nov 12 2.30pm concerning 'Elizabeth Harnaman'. Yes there were 2 of them. In the Clocaenog Baptisms (Reply Nov 8 11.25am) I have listed both: Baptism 7 April 1861: Elizabeth- followed by my note in bracket that this Elizabeth died in 1862 Baptism 11 January 1863: Elizabeth - this is the one who married in October 1886.
3) Reply Nov 12 2.36pm about the anomaly concerning James (William James) Harnaman Merely my typing error - burial 23 July 1889 and not 1879 as indicated in my Reply 12 12.54pm. You will see from the Monumental Inscription that he died 20 July 1889.
You may have noticed 17 September 1892 Sarah Harnaman married Rice Jones but that in the MI Sarah is shown as being the wife of Price Jones; 'Rice' given in the marriages register and 'Price' in the MI.
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Post by gogs on Nov 15, 2008 14:07:31 GMT
Thanks colcon for tidying up those details. I am pleased to see that you are human after all. Still doing a tremendous job. Thank you
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