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Post by annedw on Oct 20, 2008 11:21:56 GMT
From reply 60, It would be pleasing to find examples of the writing of Trevor Davies' greatX2 grandfather. Next time at the Ruthin RO I will check the explanatory in the Clocaenog census details to see if the names of the Enumerators are given. This might save your time looking at Clocaenog In 1881 the enumerator for Clocaenog was John Jones. He appears on the first page as John Jones unm age 59, he was a Wesleyan Minister and the Parish Registrar. He is living with his sister Anne also unm aged 52. Anne is a cook and general servant, both born Clocaenog.
1871 John Jones , is enumerater for Clocaenog Dist 3. and Dist 4. 1861 John Jones , farmer, is enumerator for Clocaenog Dist 3. Clocaenog Isa and Clocaenog Ucha 1851 It looks like D W Riddell, Clocaenog Dist 1 1841 ?? Clocaenog isn`t a parish as such , so what would cover it.
1891 Robert Roberts emumerater Clocaenog Dist 3 1901 Robert Roberts " " " 1901 John Hughes enumerater for Clocaenog Dist 4
Well that wasn`t much help looking for Joseph Harnamans hand writing, but still may be use to someone out there.
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Post by gogs on Oct 20, 2008 15:36:46 GMT
Hi colcom, Thanks again for your good work. Robert Davies... the only one we could find was Robert Davies buried 1901 at Llanarmon-yn-ial. We presumed it to be our Robert
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Post by colcon on Oct 21, 2008 10:30:54 GMT
Hello Gordon
Nice to be appreciated but wait until you get my bill! I'll settle for a pint if you leave one behind the bar for me at The Gladstone Arms, Gwynfryn if you visit the area again. Unfortunately however it is now closed. My Minera-born great grandmother lived there 1871 census; her future husband (ie one of my great grandfathers), who had moved there from elsewhere, was a boarder 1871 at the nearby Melbourne Arms (also closed). Both living in pubs. Lucky them.
I will come back to you in due course concerning a number of matters arising from your replies and those of the 'Minera ladies'. In the meantime however would you please tell me more about the 'Robert Davies buried 1901 at Llanarmon yn Ial', in particular your source for this information. What about his age when he died, abode and burial place?
Since some other replies in the pipeline require more research,etc and now also your reply to the questions above, my next reply will probably be some additional information about Sarah Davies' ancestry
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Post by gogs on Oct 21, 2008 10:58:02 GMT
Hi colcon, I'll buy you a pint anytime,anywhere with the greatest of pleasure. it's a pity that your ancestors seem to live in extinct pubs. Don't let them loose in my area. Robert Davies burial I found on North Wales BMD ref ARMON/07/65. No other info as yet but he would have been 56 years old. As regard Robert's second wife, Sarah, I am working on the theory that her maiden name was Roberts. I have found a civil marriage in Ruthin Jun quarter 1876 between Robert Davies and Sarah Roberts. I've ordered the certificate. If this was the case then it would explain why Miriam (his daughter) was visiting a family named Roberts in Minera in 1901
You're doing a great job
Gordon
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Post by colcon on Oct 22, 2008 8:50:25 GMT
Hello Gordon
Your reply yesterday (Robert Davies burial found on North Wales BMD ref ARMON/07/65) is as I had expected but completely mis-conceived.
Sorry to say it but you are also wrong in connection with the possible Robert Davies marriage in 1876 to a Sarah Roberts.
In Reply 64 (in answer to my specific questions in Reply 62) you stated: ....the only one we could find was a Robert Davies buried 1901 at Llanarmon yn Ial'. This is a DEATH of a Robert Davies in 1901 in the Ruthin District/Llanarmon yn Ial Sub-district (hence the ARMON ref no). This sub-district includes the births and deaths in the parishes of Llanarmon, Llandegla and Llanferres. The NWBMD deaths register is a register of where the person DIED and NOT where that person is BURIED. The burial could have taken place in a completely different area.
NWBMD lists another Robert Davies death in 1901 in the Ruthin District; this one in the Ruthin Sub-district. FREEBMD has 2 Robert Davies deaths 1901 Ruthin District. One is aged 90 and the other aged 70; one of these 2 therefore will be the NWBMD ARMON reference.
To be continued
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Post by gogs on Oct 22, 2008 9:41:25 GMT
Hi colcon, I bow to your better judgement. I have since found other records of Robert Davies death. I will await further info from you. Why do you think I am wrong about Robert and Sarah ? It was only a theory to work on. I am out all day today so it will be evening before I get back on to this.
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Post by gogs on Oct 22, 2008 9:53:46 GMT
Hi again colcon In North Wales BMD there are 3 civil marriages in Ruthin between 1873 and 1881 involving Robert and Sarah. Roberts/Jones/Williams Am I looking at one of these ??
Gordon
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Post by colcon on Oct 22, 2008 15:19:27 GMT
Hello Gordon again
Thank goodness that I broke off with rest of my intended reply to re-check something. Had I continued it would have made look quite ridiculous and having to apologise to you quite profusely for it's tone and contents.
The intended continuation of Reply 67 contained references to one particular reply of some significance which appears to have vanished from this thread. A number of other replies have also disappeared.
I have been copying the replies on a regular basis which has resulted in all the replies on my copied pages being dated/timed, eg Yesterday at 8.05, Today at 10.48, etc. That is why, in my own replies, I have been referring to other replies on this thread only by numbers and not by dates. Other than for a quick glance on screen for new replies there has been no need for me to look back. I have now also copied the whole lot again from start to finish to get the dates and to discover what is missing.
Missing for certain is a reply by 'sceptrelady in which she mentioned a possible marriage in 1877: Robert Davies and Sarah Jones; Ruthin Civil Marriage 1877 RUTHIN/05/80. That is almost certainly the one you want; not the possible marriage Robert Davies and Sarah Roberts.
Hopefully, that now explains the second paragraph of my Reply 67.
In the same missing reply by 'sceptrelady', she also provided full details of the whole 'Jones' family 1861 census at 'Tyddyn ysgubor, Llandderfel'. She had highlighted two names: Miriam Jones and her daughter (age 6) Sarah Jones. From that reply it seemed quite obvious that Robert & Sarah Davies had named their youngest daughter ( ie Miriam) after Sarah's own mother.
I just could not understand why you were ignoring the information provided by 'sceptrelady'.
Sarah age 36 1891 census tallies spot on with Sarah age 6 in 1861 census.
I now also have for you this Llandderfel family's 1851 census and 1871 census details (hence the last bit of Reply 65). Sarah still at home (but age given as 15 and not 16) in 1871; family at the same abode in 1851 and 1871 as in 1861. It now looks as if the 1861 census details need to be provided again.
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Post by colcon on Oct 22, 2008 15:55:06 GMT
Back again briefly
Saw your Replies 68 and 69 when I came back on again this afternoon to post the above reply.
Reply 70 I think now covers all your quetions.
Tomorrow morning, back to some possible deaths 1891 to 1901 for Robert Davies and Sarah Davies.
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Post by gogs on Oct 22, 2008 19:12:47 GMT
Hi colcon, I have found the reply from scetrelady re Sarah JOnes. 1861 census Tydyn ysgubon? Llanderfel,Merioneth RG9/4316/78/5 David Jones aged 42 farmer 60 acres born Llangwym,Denbighshire Miriam wife aged 43 John son aged 18 carter Catherine dau age 14 Evan Dau age10 SARAH dau age 6 Catherine Jones aunt age74 All except David born Merioneth
Is this the one you were looking for ?
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Post by colcon on Oct 23, 2008 9:08:33 GMT
Hello Gordon
Just seen your reply but as they say 'here's one I prepared earlier'.
Concerning the search for the death of Robert Davies, taking into account he has not as yet been found in the 1901 census, the details here covers only the period from the 1891 up to the next in 1901.
In FreeBMD there are deaths listed from April 1891 to March 1901 for 26 Robert Davies ( excluding a few others with also another forename) in the Wrexham Registration District with ages varying from '0' (under 1) to 78.
Whereas NWBMD identifies the various sub-districts (eg Wrexham sub-district, Ruabon sub-district, etc), FreeBMD does not. However, for the Wrexham sub-district (which includes Minera) the death records in NWBMD are currently only from July 1837 up to end 1853.
Of the 26 Robert Davies deaths in the Wrexham District there are 3 clear contenders:
a) Robert Davies, died age 50, 1896 (1st quarter Jan- Mar). Given that the Llandyrnog-born Robert Davies was born 3rd quarter 1845 this death is spot on for his age being 50 in 1st quarter 1896. This therefore may be the one. For some reason the correct date of birth has very often been found for the age to be correct on the death certificate.
The other 2 canditates are:
b) Robert Davies, died age 49, 1896 (3rd quarter July -Sept);and
c) Robert Davies, died age 48,1897 (1st quarter Jan -March).
None of the other 23 come anywhere near being the right one to be Trevor Davies' great grandfather.
If a death certificate is required, you should provide the Wrexham Reg Office with the details for the 3 as above (GRO refs as in FreeBMD of no extra help to the RO) and don't forget to mention that, as the age at death is suspect, Robert Davies was born 1845 give or take several years.
As for possible deaths (1891-1901) for Sarah Davies (born 1854/55 and aged 36 in April 1891), the nearest contender by far for the wife or widow of Robert Davies in the Wrexham District RO is one just before the 1901 census: Sarah Davies, died age 43, 1901 (1st quarter).
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Post by gogs on Oct 23, 2008 15:18:10 GMT
Thanks for that colcon, I will follow these up .
Gordon
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Post by colcon on Oct 24, 2008 9:32:55 GMT
Hello Gordon
Your replies 68 and 69 refer.
a) Ruthin Civil Marriage 1876 Ref: RUTHIN/07/21
The page with this reference contains 4 names; 2 males and 2 females. Robert Davies and 3 persons with the surnames Roberts, Thomas and Williams.
This Robert Davies married either Sarah Roberts or Caroline Thomas; Edward Williams married the other.
b) Ruthin Civil Marriage 1877 Ref: RUTHIN/05/80
Under this reference also 4 names on the page; again 2 males and 2 females. Robert Davies and 3 others with the surnames Halley, Hughes and Jones.
This Robert Davies married either Sarah Jones or Maria Hughes and Edward Halley married the other.
Unless I am very much mistaken Robert Davies married Sarah Jones and Edward Halley married Maria Hughes. So I am suggesting to you again that the certificate you need for Robert & Sarah Davies is this one in 1877.
In Reply 69 why mention 1873 and 1881? Robert Davies' first wife Ellen was still alive until May 1875 and by 1878 Robert Davies & family were living in Minera parish.
Concerning your question in Reply 68: "Why do I think I am wrong about Robert and Sarah? It was only a theory to work on".
There is no point at all in searching for a marriage of Robert Davies and Sarah ....... in the mid-1870s on the basis that over 20 years later one of the daughters of Robert & Sarah Davies was visiting a family with the surname Roberts in Minera parish 1901 census.
Please refer to your last sentence in Reply 66: " .....then it would explain why Miriam (his daughter) was visiting a family named Roberts in Minera 1901". No it would not.
See Reply 42 in particular and also some other replies.
Their daughter Miriam 1901 census was a servant at 59 Salop Road, Wrexham. It was her sister Jane who was the vistor with the Roberts family in Minera 1901.
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Post by gogs on Oct 24, 2008 9:55:52 GMT
Hi colcon, Sorry about the errors. Of course I meant 1875-1881 when referring to Roberts second marriage. And I erred again in referring to Miriam instead of Jane. I shall pursue Robert and Sarah Jones. I apologise again for my errors but my head is a bit screwed up at the moment. Too much going on, apart from the genealogy I mean.
Be right again soon.
Gordon
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Post by colcon on Oct 24, 2008 10:41:48 GMT
Back again
Your Reply 72 refers. Please also refer back again to my Reply 70.
Having copied this thread on a regular basis I already these details and what follows in the original reply, Reply No 39 by 'sceptrelady' as previously numbered, before it vanished. However, I had gained the impression that it was you who did not have these Llandderfel 1861 census details. Not only had you seen it you also had a record of the details in full.
Note that what follows these details (ie in the reply by 'sceptrelady') which you have now partly repeated in your Reply 72 is:
Possible marriage in 1877 Robert Davies & Sarah Jones - Ruthin Civil Marriage local RO reference RUTHIN/05/80 Per FreeBMD GRO reference June Qtr 1877 Ruthin Vol 116 Page 581
Notice something? All the details you needed there in the same reply.
As I've said before in Reply 70, it seemed quite obvious (well it did to me) that Robert & Sarah Davies named one of their daughters (Miriam) after Sarah's own mother. Why do you think that 'sceptrelady' had highlighted the names Miriam and her daughter Sarah.
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Post by gogs on Oct 24, 2008 11:01:03 GMT
Hi again colcon, I Have ordered the marriage certificate for Robert and Sarah Jones
Gordon
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Post by gogs on Oct 27, 2008 11:50:09 GMT
May I just thank everyone for all their help especially colcon. It has been invaluable ! I know colcon that I have been a little obtuse these last few days but I have had a lot on my mind. Sorry about that ! Too much going on !! However now back on track and ready to carry on the good work that has been aided by all of you.
Thanks again
Gogs
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Post by colcon on Oct 27, 2008 13:13:53 GMT
Hello Gordon Currently I'm trying to clear up some issues and questions which have arisen previously. Concerning the Eisteddfod Farm/Eisteddfod Cottage(s): refer to my Reply 18(old numbering) which is now Reply 15. In reply to your question (Does anyone know where Eisteddfod ....? etc) on your other thread "Minera" 'annedw ' replied as follows: www.old-maps.co.uk/index.htmTake a look at Old Maps, go to Maps page and enter the code 325700-352400 in the co-ordinates box. You'll have to zoom in. It shows the area known as Eisteddfod. I don't know about the cottages of that name though, maybe others can help. (End of that reply) So far I have not zoomed in on 'Old Maps' but on occassions I have looked at the Gwynfryn and Bwlchgwyn areas on 'Google Maps' which also includes satellite pictures: maps.google.co.ukFirst locate the Gwynfryn area (which will identify Allt Eisteddfod and Ffordd Eisteddfod by name) in the 'Map' link and then follow this area on the 'Satellite' link, which will then enable you to zoom in on the old Eisteddfod Farm buildings (on the south side at the bend where Allt Eisteddfod and Ffordd Eisteddfod meet). I will also have to come back to you about Eisteddfod Farm/Cottage. Somewhere I have details of the area around 1870 /1880 on parts of some large-scale Ordnance Survey maps.
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Post by colcon on Oct 28, 2008 11:22:18 GMT
Back again
Concerning your recent visit to the Llandegla Churchyard, would you please let me know whether Ellen Davies' details are included on the Harnaman headstone. As I explained in Reply 41, the only notes I had made were the ages and dates of death for Ann & James Harnaman.
The reason I thought that Ann & James Harnaman may have been buried in the same grave in the Llandegla Churchyard as their niece Ellen (died 1875) was made on the basis that by the time Ann H died in 1888 Robert Davies had re-married; also, he had moved from Llandegla and therefore unlikely to need the spare space available in Ellen's grave.
Therefore by 1888 when Ann H died (ie 13 years after Ellen), the Harnaman family would have thought - why waste this space?
The headstone and the inscription at Llandegla might not have been provided until after the death of James H in 1910 (ie about 35 years after Ellen had died) by which time Ellen may have been long forgotten. They probably had not excpected James H to outlive his wife by about 22 years.
Even if you confirm that Ellen's detaills are not included on the Harnaman headstone, I will still think that the forgotten Ellen is buried in the same grave as the other two.
The reason as to why Robert & Ellen Davies had moved to live at Llandegla in the first place, soon or immediately after their marriage in 1873 at Clocaenog, will no doubt have something to do with Ellen's uncle being the police constable at Llandegla at the time. Uncle James no doubt had found a house for them to live and probably also a job in the area for Robert Davies. Tan y Bryn would have been luxury accommodation for them in those days.
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Post by gogs on Oct 28, 2008 12:24:02 GMT
Hi again colcon, No mention in Llandegla churchyard of Ellen Harnaman/Davies.
Tan Y Bryn struck me indeed as very luxury accomodation for a very working class family of 1873. I expected more on the lines of a stone terraced cottage. Also I was surprised at the Tan Y Bryn being too modern for a 1873 building. I may be wrong and modernisation over the years has changed it, but it did not seem old enough.
Cheers Gordon
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Post by colcon on Oct 28, 2008 12:24:19 GMT
Another question for you (a); and one for the Minera ladies (b).
(a) Do you have the full details for one of the vanished replies by Spectrelady - previously Reply 41?
'Old' Reply 41 started: Possible marriage for David & Miriam in 1843 ..... (Bala) etc .....Then mentioned 3 birth possibilities for Robert Davies in Llandyrnog Sub -district and census possibilities in 1861(3) and 1851(1) ......etc.
If you have these details there is no need for you to repeat the reply here or any part of it. Either yes you have it/no you don't will be enough.
Previously I had avoided becoming embroilled in the Davies, Llandyrnog searches. But more fool me, I now have. More about this later.
(b) Who was responsible for sabotaging 3 of vanished replies by Spectrelady? Well, it was none other than .....
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Post by gogs on Oct 28, 2008 12:38:59 GMT
Hi again colcon, Yes, I have a copy of reply no 41 from sceptrelady. I hope this gets posted, I am having trouble with my internet server. Cheers
Gordon
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Post by gogs on Oct 28, 2008 14:04:10 GMT
Hi colccon, With regards to Eistedffod Cottages. I have previously checked with Google Maps and found the road you indicated. Didn't know about the farm though. When we were in Minera the other week , we were within 1/2 mile of the farm building you pinpointed. Great pity. Still , next time.
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Post by colcon on Oct 29, 2008 10:31:36 GMT
Hello Gordon again
I'm glad to see from Reply 85 that you have the details of 'old' Reply 41 from Sceptrelady. This makes things much easier.
Five of the replies from Sceptrelady have disappeared:
Old 10 - 1881 census Eisteddfod Cottage
Old 11 - Details about the location of Tan y Bryn
Old 13 - In which Sceptrelady , in reply to your old Reply 12 (now Reply 10), among other things said: "Well that's easier said than done." ( She can say that again!)
Old 39 - 1861 census details Tyddyn Ysgubor, Llandderfel (+ possible marriage of Robert Davies & Sarah Jones, Ruthin CM 1877) which you have in full (see your Reply 72)
Old 41 - Your Reply 85 now confirms you have these comprehensive details
You should have all the above and there is therefore no need for for any of the vanished replies to be re-introduced. Additonally, some questions/issues etc have now been overtaken by events, eg you have found the 21 Sept 1845 Robert Davies baptism and the 1851 census details for the Davies family ( including Robert age 4) at Pont-horn, Llandyrnog.
I have now found the Davieses 1861 census (still at Pont-horn) but Robert not there. Subject to some more checks, I think that Robert Davies 1861 is one of the 3 mentioned by Sceptrelady in old Reply 41: Born 1846 in1861 this one, age 14, is working as a Groom for a lady in Llanbedr .....
The age 4 1851 ties in with age 14 1861 (which should have been 5 and 15 respectively) and Llanbedr takes him closer from Llandyrnog to the Ruthin area, Clocaenog and Ellen Harnaman.
If you you need a copy of Robert Davies' birth certificate: Ruthin District/Llandyrnog Sub- district 1845 Ref DYRNOG/01/61. (FreeBMD 1845 3rd Qrtr July-Sept which ties in with his Sept 1845 baptism)
If you need a birth certificate for his son John Davies it will be one of 3 in1873/74 in Ruthin District/ Llanamon yn Ial Sub-district district:
1873 Ref ARMON/08/40; also 1873 Ref ARMON/08/44; or 1874 Ref ARMON/08/48.
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Post by gogs on Oct 29, 2008 10:43:28 GMT
Hi colcon, Thanks for that. I'll be seeing Trevor in the next day or so and I'll find out which certificates he wants. Still awaiting Marriage Cert for Robert and Sarah. I have printed copies of all the replies etc on this board.
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Post by gogs on Oct 29, 2008 11:27:19 GMT
Hi colcon, Llanbedr !! Is this Llanbedr-Dyffryn-Clwyd ? If so, I see what you mean by getting closer to Ellen.
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Post by colcon on Oct 30, 2008 12:39:00 GMT
Hello Gordon and aslo adennw, enueld, etc
At last the 'marriage details to follow' as promised at the end of my Reply 58.
a) Miriam D. Two possible marriages for Miriam Davies Wrexham Reg Office. Both Wrexham civil marriages; one in 1913 and the other in 1916.
One of these no doubt will be Miriam (born1886), the d/o Robert & Sarah D ; the other probably the Miriam D - born1888 Wrexham Dist/Sub-district - see my Reply 58.
1913 Wrexham RO: ref WM/071/92 4 names on page Miriam Davies married either Jervis Jarman or Thomas H Lloyd; the other married Annie Parry
1916 Wrexham RO: ref WM/078/75 This Miriam Davies married either Hugh David Evans or John Williams; the other married Mary E Edwards
( Eluned - your Reply 77. I do not have a*****y to test that method. For 1841-1901 census details I get a*****y dot com free of charge on the computers in library.
Same reply. Too young to become a saint. My grandfather born at Pentre Bais/Gwynfryn lived to age 93; the other, born in Llanfwrog parish, to age 84.)
As for the marriages of b) Ann Davies and c) Jane Davies, with both there are numerous possibilites as from their age around 17/18 onwards; far too many for both in Wrexham area to include here. They might have remained unmarried; or they might have died soon after the 1901 census or run away to join the circus, etc.
Have a look at North Wales BMD from 1901 onwards for the several marriages of Jane Davies and Ann/Anne/Annie Davies in Wrexham District.
Refer back again to near the end of Reply 58 concerning c) birth of Ann/Annie/Anne. Typing error there. Amend your printed copy 'she was born in 1887/88/89' to 'she was born in 1877/78/79'.
If you really need the marriages certificates for Jane & Ann the way to do it obviously would be to ask the Wrexham RO to search a) from 1901 onwards for a Jane marriage and b) from around 1907 onwards for Ann/Anne/Annie (she might have a different name on the marriage cert compared to the birth cert). There is however a limit to the period the RO's will search with vague enquiries.
Quite frankly I do not see the need to obtain for Trevor Davies the birth or the marriage certificates for Jane, Ann and Miriam, the 3 half-sisters of Trevor Davies' grandfather John Davies.
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Post by gogs on Oct 30, 2008 13:04:22 GMT
Hi colcon, Thanks again for that lot. We do know that two of the sisters finished up living in Llandulas. Their names I cannot recall at the moment but were not Jane,Miriam or Annie. I will contact Trevor for details. I seem to think that the names of the sisters in Llandula were diminuatives or pet names . He remembers going to see them when he was a boy. More later.
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Post by gogs on Oct 30, 2008 16:14:01 GMT
Hi, colcon The Llandulas ladies were known as Min and Jinny. Trevor remembers visiting them in early 1950s. Possibly Miriam and Jane?? It is thought (but only thought ) that they were spinsters.
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Post by colcon on Oct 30, 2008 18:03:45 GMT
Back again
As soon as you get the certificate for the 1877 Robert D & Sarah Jones marriage would you please provide the full details.
In the meantime would you please provide some additional information in connection with the Clocaenog 1873 Robert D & Ellen Anne Harnaman marriage; namely, Robert's 'residence at time of marriage' ( it should at least give the name of the parish where he lived at the time) and his 'trade/profession'.
This will enable me to tidy up and complete some other replies in the pipeline.
A job such as the one Robert D had in 1861 census (ie groom at Berth, Llanbedr/Llanbedr Dyffryn Clwyd, near Ruthin) would have have been light work for a 14/15 year-old before moving on to heavier work when older and stronger.
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