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Post by ronniemason on Sept 15, 2009 15:18:51 GMT
I am referring to John the son, who married Mary Chaloner when a flour dealer, who eventually had a son (joseph) and daughther (sarah)
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Post by ronniemason on Sept 15, 2009 15:23:31 GMT
Hey, How did I suddenly become a Minera historian?
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Post by eluned on Sept 15, 2009 16:00:15 GMT
Hey, How did I suddenly become a Minera historian? It's when you've written about 20 or so posts We don't have anything to confirm Ronnie's John Mason senior, as ever being in Wrexham unless his John junior also has a connection with Newton Heath, Manchester.
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Post by eluned on Sept 15, 2009 16:17:29 GMT
I am referring to John the son, who married Mary Chaloner when a flour dealer, who eventually had a son (joseph) and daughther (sarah) John died between 1851-1861 1861 Chorlton Upon Medlock, Lancashire RG9/2884, f.4, pg.8 233 Cambridge St Mary Mason H wid 40 ? holder b.N.Wales Joseph J Mason son 18 clerk b." Sarah Mason daur 16 b.Liverpool William Hughes boarder 21 mechanic fitter up b.Wales John Jones " Independent Minister 40 b."
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Post by eluned on Sept 15, 2009 16:35:57 GMT
There are 3 John Mason's deaths reg in West Derby between 1851-1861 but no ages... Mar 1/4 1855 Mar 1/4 1857 Sept 1/4 1859
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Post by ronniemason on Sept 15, 2009 16:52:50 GMT
Oh... My....Goodness!! I see where you are coming from Eluned, with regard to the Newton Heath connection. If you are right, who do you think John jnr's father could be?
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Post by eluned on Sept 15, 2009 18:08:28 GMT
Back to the John Mason marrying Mary Chaloner. We know he lived in Wrexham, born Trefaldwyn, Montgomery and his father was a also John and a publican. eluned We need to confirm that all the info given above is correct and that it is ONLY info from the marriage cert. May I just ask, have you any reason to think the death certificate is your John Mason senior other than he was John Mason and a publican?
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Post by annedw on Sept 15, 2009 19:36:21 GMT
RG12; Piece: 3185; Folio 32; Page 18; 1891 Chorton upon Medlock They were living in Avon Street in 1871 / 1881 Mary Mason 70 b Wales Sarah unm 46 milliner
RG13; Piece: 3675; Folio: 132; Page: 6. 1901 Ardwick, Chorlton Manchester Sarah Mason 56 unm b Liverpool Fanny E Scrimshaw 30 unm Deaconess Methodist Church Emma W Todd 34 unm , Deaconess Methodist Church
I agree with Eluned that it seems the death cert you have is the wrong one.
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Post by ronniemason on Sept 15, 2009 20:06:41 GMT
Eluned: the info is correct insofar as John Jnr. lived in Hope Street Wrexham at the time of his marriage to Mary Chaloner and that his father is a John Mason, Publican. (this on their m.cert.) That he was born in Trefaldwyn, Montgomery is taken from the 1651 census (incidently there is a transcript error ..it looks like Infefroyd.... but is on close inspection "Trefaldwyn" This census shows John 34, Mary 29, Joseph 8 and Sarah 6 living at 81 King Street, Liverpool. No, on reflection I have no reason to believe that this John is John's father.
Eluned and Annette: I have to agree wholeheartedly with you both. Thank you both for your huge efforts. I have always taken it for granted as correct research done by my mother in 1977. But I now strongly believe that this research may be flawed in respect of John senior's involvement.
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Post by eluned on Sept 15, 2009 20:22:31 GMT
Hi Ronnie, Was the death certificate passed down through the family or was it either bought recently or previously by your Mother?
If it wasn't passed down in the family I think we can safely say that this isn't your line but just a coincidence that there was another John Mason, publican living in Wrexham.
Eluned
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Post by ronniemason on Sept 15, 2009 20:46:19 GMT
Hi eluned, puchased by my mother in 1977
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Post by ronniemason on Sept 15, 2009 20:49:51 GMT
I think my Uncle Geoff 90 is going to remember what he thinks the pub name was, i seem to remember he has talked about a pub that was knocked down to make room for a supermarket in wrexham.
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Post by eluned on Sept 15, 2009 21:03:22 GMT
If he's anything like my father in law he may not accept that the info your Mother found wasn't quite right....
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Post by annedw on Sept 16, 2009 11:10:07 GMT
John Mason age 34 book keeper, born Montgomeryshire.
If John is in Wrexham for the 1841 census, then surely he will be Not Born in County and . N by his name.
I`ll try to find out if there is one that fits.
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Post by ronniemason on Sept 16, 2009 12:16:27 GMT
Have just told my Mum about the error and she said it was quite quite possible that she got it wrong, so no offence taken and thank you for pointing it out.
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Post by ronniemason on Sept 16, 2009 13:13:52 GMT
This is where I show my lack of experience in research.......Have found GENUKI Trefaldwyn/Montgomery. This must presumably be a good source of info for birth/Baptism of John jnr? but can't work out how to do a search?? do I have to go there?
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Post by eluned on Sept 16, 2009 15:43:28 GMT
1841 Wrexham John Mason's listed: John Mason 20 Grocer J Hope Street Not born in county John Mason 39 Corn Dealer Beast Market Ann " 27 Emma " 19 John " 12 Edward " 10 John Mason 50 Malster Well Street Mary Mason 51 Dressmaker All the others born in county. I asked the lady who did the look up in 1841 to see who was born in or out of County. So this one is most probably yours but not with his family. John Mason 20 Grocer J Hope Street Not born in county
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Post by ronniemason on Sept 16, 2009 16:19:00 GMT
eluned:you are trying so hard, and I am so grateful. I don't think this one can be mine as on 17/12/1841 on his m.cert. says he is "24", so I am really stumped!! I really need to find a baptism or something for him in Trefaldwyn/Montgomery, where I know he was born. What do you think?
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Post by eluned on Sept 16, 2009 16:21:12 GMT
This is where I show my lack of experience in research.......Have found GENUKI Trefaldwyn/Montgomery. This must presumably be a good source of info for birth/Baptism of John jnr? but can't work out how to do a search?? do I have to go there? I have found my way via the genuki site to this one, Powys Archives. www.powys.gov.uk/index.php?id=653It shows here what Parish Registers are available within the archives including; Parish registers for Montgomery: C 1574-1691, 1694-1972, M 1574-1691, 1694-1981, B 1574-1691, 1694-1966 It is possible for the staff to do searches for a fee or you can go in person. Here is a list of Parish Register transcripts available from the Montgomery Genealogical Society and details at the bottom of the page on how to order them. home.freeuk.net/montgensoc/pages/pubns.htmEluned
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Post by eluned on Sept 16, 2009 16:23:41 GMT
eluned:you are trying so hard, and I am so grateful. I don't think this one can be mine as on 17/12/1841 on his m.cert. says he is "24", so I am really stumped!! I really need to find a baptism or something for him in Trefaldwyn/Montgomery, where I know he was born. What do you think? Ages frequently differ in varying documents but the ages given in the 1841 census were required to be rounded down by the census enumerator. "The enumerator was directed to record the actual age of children under 15 and to round the age down to the nearest multiple of 5 for those over 15 years."I still think he is yours
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Post by annedw on Sept 16, 2009 16:34:33 GMT
Funnily enough there is a very article in this months Hel Achau about 1841 census. It says that ages were given in multiples of 5. Therefore 20 (24) and Hope Street , and not born in County Just a shame it doesn`t actually state which county.
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Post by ronniemason on Sept 16, 2009 18:43:09 GMT
but his marriage cert of same year says he is flour dealer?
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Post by eluned on Sept 16, 2009 20:18:05 GMT
Hi I think I'm right in saying that only certain terms for occupations could be used in the census. So perhaps grocer covered the selling of a multitude of food goods.
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Post by annedw on Sept 17, 2009 8:20:28 GMT
I contacted Jill Rose, who has done the Clwyd Parish Register Index. This is her reply. Hello Annette I've uploaded on to my website all the information for the three John Mason's listed in the Wrexham Town 1841 census. One of them, aged 20, looks as if he might be yours but he's down as a grocer's journeyman, not born in County. I usually put any information I'm asked for onto the website just in case someone else is also looking for it. freespace.virgin.net/jill.farndon25/M.htmlJourneyman- One who had served his apprenticeship and mastered his craft,not bound to serve a master, but hired by the day. So perhaps he didn`t actually run the Grocery, but just helped out as needed.
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Post by ronniemason on Sept 17, 2009 8:50:03 GMT
Thanks Annette, and my thanks to Jill. This is all beginning to become a bit clearer. He is a young man 20/24 at this point and may not yet have settled into a permanent job. I am currently trying to establish contact with Wrexham Library where I have heard there may be a book listing past pubs on Hope Street and which may contain a reference to John as Publican. A bit vague but may throw some light on the matter. The pub in question is said to have been on the site occupied by the present Library but from the same source I had heard many years ago that it was on a site now occupied by a supermarket......time will tell hopefully. Ronnie
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Post by eluned on Sept 17, 2009 9:07:35 GMT
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Post by ronniemason on Sept 17, 2009 9:30:27 GMT
Thanks for that. Very interesting!
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Post by ronniemason on Sept 17, 2009 9:33:02 GMT
Info comes from My Uncle Geoff 90 on Sunday (reason for my being in the area)
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Post by eluned on Sept 17, 2009 10:19:25 GMT
Hi Ronnie, If poss. try and establish the souce of the info from your Uncle ie. family story, a document. That will give us something to go on hopefully.
Have a good weekend.
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Post by ronniemason on Sept 17, 2009 14:45:18 GMT
A Question: Is Wrexham Museum likely to have any parish or sensus records that we don't already have access to?
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