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Post by annedw on Nov 11, 2009 12:26:20 GMT
Have checked Wrexham Prs , for a burial in 1853, guess what nowt. Of course if he died in Gwersyllt he could have been buried at Gresford. Trouble is it`s still nothing definiately linked to your John Mason is it Incidently, I live in Gwersyllt
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Post by ronniemason on Feb 22, 2010 14:27:34 GMT
Hi again everyone, Having given our Johns a rest for a while and having successfully completed research on other branches of the family both abroad and at home, I find my mind returns two the "elusive twosome"!!! Looking back on all the hard work you did I think the only possible sighting we have of John Mason Jr. we have prior to his marriage to Mary Chaloner 17-12-1841 is in Wrexham census living in Hope street with Ebenezer Jones both born out of county ages probably rounded down to 20 (he would actually be around 24) profession: grocer (which could also be a flour dealer as on his marriage cert). From the 1851 census living King Street Liverpool we discover that he was born in Trefeglwys Montgomeryshire around 1817. I have a question...... In all the records you have looked at is there anywhere that has not been looked at? For example would a visit to Powys County Archives Offices stand a chance of throwing up any new evidence of a birth? Sorry to be a burden again..Ronnie
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Post by eluned on Feb 22, 2010 15:23:27 GMT
Hi Ronnie, Nice to see you again and definitely not a burden I would certainly give it a try if I were you, nothing to loose. Check the PRs and any non conformist registers for a baptism. Hi eluned I ordered 2 different death certificates from W Derby (1859) and Liverpool (1858) but put in a check to ensure they were for a John Mason who was a Bookkeeper. Neither passed this test so the GRO didn't send me the certificates (but I did get a part refund!). I will try the other 2 now - one in 1857 and one in 1855 and see what they bring. Did you ever turn up the correct death cert?
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Post by ronniemason on Feb 22, 2010 17:48:44 GMT
Hi Eluned, Thanks for your reply, I think Patrick and I will plan a few days in Wales in the spring, so I am thinking about what we need to look at and not miss anything we could have looked at. We are not making any firm plans at the moment as sadly Geoff, Patrick's Dad passed away last Monday age 90. I'm so glad I went to his 90th last September. (The last of a generation of Masons). I'm not sure what Patrick turned up re death cert but will ask him in time. Thanks again and please let me know if you have any flashes of inspiration. Ronnie
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Post by annedw on Feb 22, 2010 18:14:29 GMT
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Post by ronniemason on Feb 23, 2010 9:30:27 GMT
Well....spoke to Powys Archives and they tell me that they do have Baptism records for Trefeglwys. In the meantime I have found a potential candidate for John snr, but will need to be tested against baptisms, either way we might get there yet.
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Post by annedw on Feb 23, 2010 10:21:39 GMT
That`s very odd, wasn`t there a church there at that time. I`m looking at Genuki now, and they have a pic of Trefeglyws church, but I can`t find any info on the parishes of Montgomeryshire. When I go to Clwyd FHS , maye later this week , I`ll have a look at Hayes marriage index. Now we know it was Trefeglwys, there may be a marriage of John Mason and ? about that time. If the church was there that is. www.cpat.demon.co.uk/projects/longer/churches/montgom/16964.htmSt Michael's church in Trefeglwys, 9 miles to the west of Newtown, was founded in the 12thC but the present building dates only from 1863-5. The timber bell frame and supports (perhaps of the 17thC) were retained from the earlier church, as was a 15thC bell. Now we have Non Conformists. www.wbhmethodists.org.uk/chapels/trefeglwys
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Post by annedw on Feb 23, 2010 10:58:15 GMT
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Post by eluned on Feb 23, 2010 11:18:58 GMT
Hi Eluned, Thanks for your reply, I think Patrick and I will plan a few days in Wales in the spring, so I am thinking about what we need to look at and not miss anything we could have looked at. We are not making any firm plans at the moment as sadly Geoff, Patrick's Dad passed away last Monday age 90. I'm so glad I went to his 90th last September. (The last of a generation of Masons). I'm not sure what Patrick turned up re death cert but will ask him in time. Thanks again and please let me know if you have any flashes of inspiration. Ronnie Hi Ronnie, Sorry to hear that your Uncle Geoff passed away. I send my deepest condolences to you, Patrick and your families. Regards, Lynn
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Post by ronniemason on Feb 23, 2010 12:07:49 GMT
Thanks Lynn, sentiments much appreciated and will pass on to Patrick
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Post by ronniemason on Feb 23, 2010 12:30:53 GMT
Annette, If you go to Clwyd FHS, could you please look into these census returns?
Class: HO107; Piece 1440; Book: 2; Civil Parish: Llanllwchaiarn; County: Montgomeryshire; Enumeration District: 7; Folio: 9; Page: 9; Line: 24; GSU roll: 464340. and Class: HO107; Piece: 2497; Folio: 333; Page: 39; GSU roll: 104259.
A John Mason appears to have remarried and there is a link with Davies ladies, I think they are the same John Mason, what do you think......If only to eliminate as a possibility, might be a red herring.....professions don't match with our John snr. Was thinking that there is nothing that says that John snr was living in Wrexham at time of jnr's marriage.
OR AM I CONFUSING THE ISSUE?
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Post by eluned on Feb 23, 2010 13:02:05 GMT
Yes you are correct, there is nothing at all to say John senior was ever in Wrexham. I think we need to look for a John that is in the same job though, a publican if I remember correctly. These are the census details you mention above. 1841 Llanllwchaiarn,Montgomeryshire HO107/1440, Bk.2, F.9, pg.9 John Mason lab 65 Margret Mason 70 Both born in county 1851 Llanllwchaiarn HO107/2497/333/39 John Mason H mar 73 Tollgate Keeper Mary Mason wife 49 Mary Davies mother in law wid 85 pauper Martha Parry lodger wid 84 pauper Jane Evans lodger 6 All b.Montgomeryshire.
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Post by ronniemason on Feb 23, 2010 13:19:01 GMT
Yes Lynn, This John found himself a young'un!!! but had to accept mum in law for his trouble!!
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Post by annedw on Feb 23, 2010 17:02:54 GMT
Bloomin eck didn`t take him long. Deaths Dec 1841 MASON Margaret Newtown * 27 85 Marriages Jun 1842 Mason John Newtown &c 27 182 DAVIES Mary Newtown &c 27 182 EVANS Frances Newtown &c 27 182 POWELL James Newton &c 27 182 www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/newtown.htmlContains Trefeglwys.
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Post by ronniemason on Feb 24, 2010 19:04:26 GMT
Thanks for PM Annette, just goes to show.... I spoke to Powys and the woman told me they definitely had Trefeglwys records ( good thing I didn't take a trip over there!!) Will follow instructions and get in touch with FMP and MGS, thanks for help again.
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Post by patrickmason2 on Mar 1, 2010 10:49:08 GMT
Hi again all - thanks for your kind thoughts on Dad's passing. He was such a strong link to the Victorian generation and his knowledge has gone with him, though I managed to pick his brain quite a bit these past few years. We will all miss him badly.
We are having a quiet few days near Hereford and I can easily pass via Llandrindod Wells. If I get there - what should I be asking them to look for - baptism records for John Mason from around 1817? Anything else? Thanks
P.S. I checked out all the deaths for John Mason (Jnr) in the Liverpool area between 1851 and 1861 censi dates and none of the listed entries match his search criteria. I may have been too specific, so can't find him - or they may already have moved to Manchester area before John Jnr died and hence he may be registered around there instead.
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Post by annedw on Mar 2, 2010 18:01:12 GMT
www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/MGY/Trefeglwys/Gaz1868.html#LewisGenuki is a good place to find more about Trefeglwys, remember even though John was presumed to have been born there it doesn`t mean he was baptised there, I would look at the surrounding parishes and even further if needs be. There`s also the fact he could have been Non Conformist. When he came to Wrexham, how did he meet Sarah, there were no places where young people could meet by chance, and it was usually through a family member or a Church/Chapel. The Chaloners seemed to be definately Non Com. The marriage of his parents will hopefully be in a Church, before 1837 a marriage outside the Church was not recognised as `lawful` but I guess many couples didn`t care a hoot about that. It might be worth looking at the Wills Index, up to 1858 for Wales is online, but John snr could have been alive after that, and even over the border in England. I`m sure the staff in the Archives will point you in the right direction. freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers/CountyMontgomery.htm#NThis sitehas a lot of Non Conformist records for Montgomery, but a search on Family Search will also bring up these, and so far there`s no John Mason with a father John.
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Post by ronniemason on Mar 4, 2010 9:56:42 GMT
Thanks Annette, will alert Patrick to your message he is going to Powys today. Just a minor correction John Jnr. married Mary Chaloner not Sarah ( to avoid confusion ). Thanks again and we all look forward to hearing what Patrick may find. Ronnie
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Post by annedw on Mar 4, 2010 16:03:29 GMT
Just to add another stick to the fire. Deaths, North Wales Chronicle (Bangor, Wales), Friday, March 11, 1853 6th inst at Gwersyllt aged 11 Mr John Mason, maltster, Wrexham I found this burial in Gresford PRs. 9 March 1853 William Mason aged 11. Gwersyllt Perhaps William was the son of John the maltster. I know he`s not yours, but at least the mystery is solved. Deaths Jun 1853 Mason William Wrexham 11b 237 Of course it`s Mary. I`m easily confused. ;D Good luck at the Archives. ;D
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Post by ronniemason on Mar 5, 2010 9:23:45 GMT
Well.. I had a phone-call from Pat! He only found one baptism in Trefeglwys around the time we expected, namely: John son of John Mason ( miner ) and Anne Davies Baptism June 1815, to be sure we are looking for bapt. c.1817. So I think we would have to say inconclusive. The only other thing he found was a death of Joseph Edward Mason 1832 age 69. I don't think he had time to look into outlying areas. No doubt we shall speak after his return at the w/e. So the search continues!!
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Post by patrickmason2 on Mar 7, 2010 12:49:12 GMT
Just to confirm what I found in Powys archives - I only managed the time to look at the reel for Trefeglwys, Mont - looked at baptisms, marriages and deaths for period 1813-1860 roughly. Clearly this is for the main parish church, not the nonconformists as I understand.
The only John Masons in whole register were the John Mason (illigitimate) son of John Mason (miner) and Ann Davies baptised on 29th June 1815. No sign of any later marriages or deaths for any of these 3. Curate was Ian (?) Morgan.
Just a hypothesis! There is a lead mine very near Trefeglwys. Perhaps John Snr was a lead miner to start with (before changing to a publican) and was from Minera area - went down to work lead mine in Trefeglwys for a period, lodged with Davies family had a child and then returned to Wrexham/Minera. Perhaps they married later on return - or never did. It could explain why John Jnr would claim to be 24 in 1841 rather than 26. Spurious and all circumstantial I know - but would explain a lot -e.g. how the Chalenor's and Mason's might have know each other.
The Joseph Edward Mason who died 30th Nov 1832 aged 69 was fronm CayMegen - but can't find any listing in Google for CayMegen! He could of course be John Snr's dad - but all very frustrating as nothing links any of these people to our suspects.
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Post by eluned on Mar 7, 2010 18:02:48 GMT
It could explain why John Jnr would claim to be 24 in 1841 rather than 26. Hi Patrick, Hope Street Thos Francis 40 Grocer N Eliz. “ 40 Y John Mason 20 Grocer J N Ebenezer Jones 20 Grocer J N "The enumerator was directed to record the actual age of children under 15 and to round the age down to the nearest multiple of 5 for those over 15 years."eluned
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Post by annedw on Mar 8, 2010 9:31:07 GMT
The only John Masons in whole register were the John Mason (illigitimate) son of John Mason (miner) and Ann Davies baptised on 29th June 1815. . Did it give an abode for John and Ann.
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Post by patrickmason2 on Mar 8, 2010 10:27:50 GMT
Hi all - thanks for your comments. Annette - there was no other information on the baptismal record - many entries did have a place of abode but their's (I thought pointedly) didn't. Eluned - your comment re. age of John being rounded down to 20 in the 1841 census is interesting - though why would he mis-represent his age on his marriage certificate - unless he meant to or wasn't really sure of it - e.g. if he was illigitimate and was trying to hide the fact. Is it just pure coincidence that you had found the record for a Mason married with a Davies - albeit Ann not Mary!? 851 Llanllwchaiarn HO107/2497/333/39 John Mason H mar 73 Tollgate Keeper Mary Mason wife 49 Mary Davies mother in law wid 85 pauper Martha Parry lodger wid 84 pauper Jane Evans lodger 6 All b.Montgomeryshire
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Post by annedw on Mar 8, 2010 12:13:19 GMT
I wouldn`t read too much in the age being wrong on census. My ancestor , also illeg. according to census records was born in 1825 Ruthin. 1829, Clocaenog. 1829, Llanfwrog. His age was recorded as 20 when he married in 1852. He was acually baptised in 1824. in Llanfwrog.
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Post by eluned on Oct 19, 2010 11:00:28 GMT
Lots of Mongomeryshire PRs have recently been added to Find My Past so I'm told, maybe worth a look.
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