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Post by eluned on Sept 18, 2009 9:23:59 GMT
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Post by ronniemason on Sept 18, 2009 10:38:22 GMT
Eluned, Thanks for your last two posts, the links are very interesting and as regards what enquiries I can make in in person in the forseable future... I will have to plan. I live in the south of England and I will have to make a separate trip for further research in person, which I will of course. My visit to Minera this Sunday is possible because I am going to Bebington, Liverpool this w/e for the 90 birthday celebration and coming home via Minera. Tom has asked for pics and anything I do find out (subject to adders and wasps!!!) I will post here. To All: This has been a fascinating journey so far, I have learned a great deal, and I am VERY grateful for the huge amount of time you have all put into JOHN MASON/MARY CHALONER. We will get there in the end. We will find John snr.!! Thanks Ronnie
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Post by eluned on Sept 21, 2009 19:27:37 GMT
Did you find any further clues on your trip to the Wern and/or whilst visiting your uncle? eluned
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Post by ronniemason on Sept 21, 2009 20:20:36 GMT
Sadly No. Geoff could not focus on the possibility that that John Snr was not who we thought he was. He had made a visit to either Wrexham Library or the museum together with my father many years ago but when "interrogated" was not able to remember what was really said. Sadly my father cannot help us here. So nothing new to report here I am afraid. The Wern side of things was most interesting from a visitor point of view and I was pleased to be able to meet "The Challoners", but being Sunday I didn't get beyond the Wern or Machine House. Ronnie
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Post by annedw on Sept 22, 2009 15:18:48 GMT
1841 Wrexham John Mason's listed: John Mason 20 Grocer J Hope Street Not born in county John Mason 39 Corn Dealer Beast Market John " 12 John Mason 50 Malster Well Street John Mason. Death Free BMD Wrexham John Mason 1844 Jun qtr . b 1790 ? St Giles Burials 1843 June 21 John Mason age 54 W(xm) A(bbott) b 1789 Now - have I copied it down wrongly, or is is a transcript error. Worth a look at the death certificate I would think. The rest of the Mason burials I`ll put on the `Other Masons` thread.
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Post by annedw on Sept 22, 2009 17:20:11 GMT
Burial 1843/44 June 21 John Mason age 54 W(xm) A(bbott) b 1789 Is this JM above, not in the Wrexham 1841 census then ? 1851 John Mason H unm 22 grocer & provision dealer John Mason father wid 53 maltster Just noticed that there is only 3 years difference in age between 1841 and 1851 for John the maltster. I have a headache now
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Post by eluned on Sept 22, 2009 17:33:00 GMT
There's this one John Mason 50 Malster Well Street Mary Mason 51 Dressmaker I really do know what you mean about confusing ;D Follow page 3 of this thread.
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Post by annedw on Sept 23, 2009 10:15:02 GMT
;D ;D ;D I`ve had a good sleep, and have had another rumagge around.
There were definately Masons in the Llandiloes area. Historical directories has these.
1829 Pigots Llanidloes John Mason, China Street, Flannel manufacturer
Pigots 1835 Llanidloes Jane Mason , Long Bridge Street, Flannel manufacturer
1844 Pigots. Llanidloes, No Masons
Slaters 1859 Llanidloes. no Masons. Newtown. Susan Mason.Flannel manufacturer
Now this is interesting. As we think that John was born Trefeglwys and Masons are flannel manufacturers, there is a link with the place and occupation.
Powys FHS publication,( I suppose this is the issue number 14, and pages 2-3. It looks like the Index only has the title of the article , so if Mason is there it won`t show up. flannel manufacturers (see 'weavers')weavers Trefeglwys, MGY (14 : 2-3) Issue 14 , Summer 1986
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Post by ronniemason on Oct 5, 2009 12:09:26 GMT
Hello again all possible development! we were looking for a connection with Newton Heath for John jnr (ref death cert of John Mason ) I happened to notice 1901 census that jnr's son Joseph by Jane Smalley is listed Class: RG13; Piece: 3670; Folio: 93; Page: 35. born NEWTON DETACHED. The following link refers to Newton detached/Newton Heath www.microform.co.uk/guides/R50044.pdf, could this now have some bearing? I wonder.......
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Post by eluned on Oct 5, 2009 12:43:19 GMT
Hi Ronnie, Sorry to say but your link doesn't seem to work
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Post by ronniemason on Oct 5, 2009 13:07:23 GMT
hmm, can't get there either now, site probably down will try later or if you Google Newton detached you will find listed "Ecclesiastical and land records in the Manchester Cathedral..." maybe try direct from here? Ronnie
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Post by ronniemason on Oct 5, 2009 13:09:19 GMT
sorry no comma at end of link
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Post by eluned on Oct 5, 2009 13:27:42 GMT
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Post by eluned on Oct 5, 2009 14:26:11 GMT
Hi Ronnie, I have been having a good old think about this one again Rather than trying to prove that the death certificate your mum purchased is correct, it may be better just to work back one step at a time, with the facts you already have. So between 1851-1861 your John jnr dies. He was living in West Derby, Liverpool with his family in 1851 so we should start there. There are 3 John Mason's deaths reg in West Derby between 1851-1861 but no ages... Mar 1/4 1855 Mar 1/4 1857 Sept 1/4 1859 Ordering the certificate but including his age and occupation may do it but giving info that isn't exactly right will usually mean that they wont send one at all. We can't guarantee that he died in West Derby but FH is often about ruling things out as well as in. If he isn't one of the ones listed above , then a search in the Manchester area will be the next port of call. There is also a chance that he may be listed in directories in Liverpool and/or Manchester. There are some online at the link below. www.historicaldirectories.org/hd/index.aspEluned
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Post by annedw on Oct 6, 2009 9:15:39 GMT
Births Mar 1843 Mason Joseph John Wrexham 27 295 I`m guessing you have this birth certificate, other wise how do you know that Mary was a Chaloner .
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Post by ronniemason on Oct 6, 2009 11:31:09 GMT
Hi Annette, I will do what I should have done before an e-mail you copies of the certificates that I have. Ronnie
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Post by annedw on Oct 6, 2009 15:46:58 GMT
Fron the book Wrexham Breweries and Inns, the only mention of a John Mason is that in Pigots 1830 he was at the Old Three Tuns, Brook Street. In a List of Inkeepers and their Bondsmen dated 1820, there are no Masons at all. The Innkeeper named at the Three Tuns was Charles Phillips. In Slaters 1868 a Thomas Mason is at the Dolphin, Mount Street. The only MI`s I couldn`t look at before was the Dissenters, Rhosddu Road, and the only Mason there with a headstone is `Mary Mason died 1864` Not a lot .
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Post by ronniemason on Oct 6, 2009 17:48:49 GMT
OK Annette once again thanks you so much for taking the trouble to look for us. No... not very promising as I think we had established our John was not Old Three Tuns. Oh well.. the search continues.......thanks again, Ronnie and now Pat.
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Post by annedw on Oct 7, 2009 12:11:36 GMT
minerahistory.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=mineragwynfryn&action=display&thread=596These come from Slaters 1858/9 Wales, Directory for Wrexham, and should get the ball rolling again Mason John Baker & flour dealer Beast market Mason John jnr Grocer & tea dealer Beast market Mason John Maltster Beast market Mason John Brewer Holt st terMason Thos Boot & shoe maker Hope st ( Unnamed) Mathias Tavernkeeper Old Three Tuns Brook st
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Post by ronniemason on Oct 7, 2009 12:33:37 GMT
Just a general question......If on the night of a Census, Hubby is away (say in a hotel) on business does the wife show up at home as HEAD of household?
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Post by eluned on Oct 7, 2009 12:43:08 GMT
Hi Ronnie, That's what we would expect to see yes, but it's not always the case. I have seen some census returns where the wife is shown as "wife" If he has passed away, she should then be listed as a head and widow. Eluned
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Post by annedw on Oct 7, 2009 12:58:53 GMT
www.thepotteries.org/education/census.htmThis will give more info on the Census. Wrexham census is always full of odd persons with strange ocupations, I found many in Charles St, the reason being that it was the Wrexham Fair held at that time , and many `entertainers` came to town for that. They were usually classed as visitors or boarders.
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Post by ronniemason on Oct 7, 2009 14:07:26 GMT
In 1861 Census Mary (Chaloner) widow was living in Chorlton upon Medlock, presumably just after John Jnr's death. One of her boarders was John Jones, Independent Minister! can we find out which Chapel he came from? might tell us which chapel she attended and maybe we find our John jnr death registered there? Or am I being silly?
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Post by ronniemason on Oct 7, 2009 14:35:10 GMT
Independent Chapel Cavendish Street was closest to Cambridge Street
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Post by eluned on Oct 7, 2009 14:53:41 GMT
John Jones born WALES ;D I've got quite a few of those!!! I don't think it's a silly sugestion at all but it may be a long shot, as we still don't know where he died and it would be rather time consuming. So it depends if you have the time to do it, not everyone has. We can assume a nonconformist burial (although it could be the Challoners who were Independent ) so it may be an idea to look for chapels burials in West Derby and then move to the Chorlton upon Medlock area. But firstly, I would still choose to purchase a death certificate as the survival rate of nonconformist registers is poor. www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/familyhistory/guide/people/nonconformist.htmAlso as you can do this lookup near to home, this could prove useful. Hiya Have you thought of looking to see if John Mason senior left a will? The calendars of probate indexes are available on film or fiche in most record offices and some archive depts. They are searchable by year, best to look for a few years following somones death just incase, and they are in alphabtical order. A will may give information on other family members. I refer to the one dying in 1860, that you have the death cert for. Eluned
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Post by annedw on Oct 7, 2009 15:13:48 GMT
These are from " The other John Mason` thread. The address crops up just too often to be a coincidence. I agree with Eluned, finding a will should solve it , but I think finding the death of your John would be the best bet.
1881 Wrexham RG11/5519, f.47, pg.33 8 Holt ST Terr Samuel Mason H unm 60 Ellen Mason sister unm 70 John Mason Jones nephew 12 scholar All born Wrexham
1851 Wrexham HO107/2503, f.490, pg.34 Beast Market, sch 138 Samuel Mason H unm 30 boot & shoe manufacturer b.Wrexham Ellen Mason sister unm 36 b."
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Post by eluned on Oct 7, 2009 15:51:40 GMT
My head is in a muddle now so working out who this is is proving difficult but thought I needed to post it ;D I hadn't previously searched in Wrexham because he was born elsewhere but could he have been baptised as a young boy in Wrexham IGI John Mason bap Wrexham 30 Jul 1823 to John and Mary Mason! So he can't be the other John Junior that moves to Newton Heath, he is born c.1829.
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Post by eluned on Oct 7, 2009 18:15:47 GMT
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Post by eluned on Oct 7, 2009 21:17:42 GMT
Hi Ronnie, Just a thought, but on Joseph John Mason's wedding cert, what was his fathers occupation please? It may seem unimportant but you never know! Also, thinking about daughter Sarah, she was aged 6 b Liverpool in 1851. Birth reg. West Derby Jun 1/4 1845 Sarah Mason eluned
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Post by ronniemason on Oct 8, 2009 8:54:41 GMT
Joseph John (son of John jnr) marriage cert details: age 22, bachelor, bookkeeper, living in Ince Makerfield, (this is Wigan, his bride Jane Amanda Smalley came from Wigan) father's name: John Mason (deceased), profession of Father: Bookkeeper In Dec 1841 Mary (Chaloner) married John Mason In 1851 she was living with John and 2 kids (8,6) in 81 King Street, Liverpool. In 1861, Mary was a widow and aged 40. She and their 2 children Joseph (18 clerk - C??? ) and Sarah (16 scholar) had left Liverpool and were living at 233 Cambridge Street, Chorlton-upon-Medlock (Manchester). In 1871 she was living with Sarah (her Daughter 26, a Milliner) and a lodger in 7 Avon Street, Chorlton Upon Medlock (Manchester). In 1881, she was 60 and still living with Sarah but had moved next door to 9, Avon Street In 1891 ditto but appeared to have moved back to 7 Avon Street with Sarah We don't know if John died before or after move from Liverpool to Manchester
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